September 02, 2024, 10:24:26 PM

Author Topic: Some Rules Queries  (Read 3012 times)

Offline Andrew_NZ

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Some Rules Queries
« on: November 13, 2017, 06:05:43 PM »
Tried out the Escalating Engagement Scenario, had some questions, only one scenario specific:

(1) A ship that is not moving (sneaky Eldar, or Burn Retros), has a blast marker and a fighter squadron on CAP.
Do the Fighters roll for "moving" through a blast marker?  The blast marker is touching the ship base so that
affects anything on the stand (I think).  Thought that CAP is always "moving" so we rolled to avoid a 6.

(2) Does an attempted Disengage order replace a Special Order?  Directly reading the rules seemed to imply that you could roll to attempt a Special Order.  If that did not come off you could try a Leadership Test to disengage (despite nobody else rolling for Special Orders).  That seemed like an odd rule mechanism.

(3) In the Escalating Engagement Scenario there is a +2 for the roll for ships to arrive if there is a friendly ship within 30 cm of the contact marker.  Would a friendly ship include an Attack Craft (ordinance marker)?  Enemy ordinance gets counted when trying to disengage.  I can imagine sending long range fighter (recon) groups to find and guide in scattered forces.

(4) If a fleet disengages do the enemy count 10% of the forces that did not arrive in their victory calculation?  This would seem rather harsh if they did.  You could argue they have not disengaged, because they have not even engaged.

(5) Escalating Engagement scenario balance?  So I had Tau (max move 20 cm with the Exploration Fleet) and we were fighting Eldar (min move 15+15 = 30 cm towards the sun) which means 33% chance of Tau arrival, 67% chance of Eldar arrival.  Once the ships arrive the Eldar move 2-3 times faster to get into contact.  I think the +2 in (3) above is needed for some balance.  And I've thought a little more about how I might help the Tau be more competitive in this scenario.  But any advice??

Offline Green_Squad_Leader

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 03:34:53 AM »
#1: Yes.  When you go on the Burn Retros special order you still perform a move, you may simply choose to make it a movement of 0 cm.  As a result any effects which occur when you move into base contact with another game piece (ie: Blast Markers, Ordnance, Other ships, Celestial Phenomina) would still be triggered when you move 0 cm.

#2: No, it doesn't.  The two rules are deliberately separate as they represent different things.  Special Orders represent the "admiral" of your fleet giving complex orders to each ship or squadron and the test is to see how well they react to and implement said orders.  The reason you cannot try to place additional ships on special orders after one ship has failed its command check is that the breakdown in communication has occurred between the higher chain of command and that ship, and said failure causes enough chaos and confusion that any additional orders are lost or fail to reach their targets in time for them to be relevant.

By contrast Disengaging is something that each ship does on its own independent of the higher chain of command.  As a result the leadership test to disengage represents the ship itself doing what it has to to disengage, not it interacting with its external chain of command.  As a result you can attempt both in a turn.

#3: Interesting question that I had never considered before.  Initially I was going to say no, but your reasoning is pretty sound an it would make sense for it to work as you suggest.  As such I'd lean towards saying yes.  This is definitely something that needs to be clarified when this scenario is rewritten, as it is a great question.  I'd recommend that it provide only a +1 bonus to the roll for a ship arriving from reserve, that way its not easily abused.  Plus it would make sense that a small fighter wouldn't be able to provide as much information or guidance to a warship as another warship could.

#4: Yes they do.  Again its a great question and should be clarified in the rewrite, but think of it this way: the reinforcements disengaged from the battle before actually reaching it.

#5: None of the original Scenarios for this game are balanced dude.  Eldar are SUPPOSED to have the advantage you are expressing in the Escalating Engagement scenario.  My recommendation is that you play it on  a larger table, several of the scenarios work better when played on a larger table.  Heck the Convoy Scenario works better when played on an 8'x4' table, my group realized that during our last campaign.  If the table is larger it forces the Eldar player to have to move further to reach you.  This game really is radically different when played on anything smaller than a 6'x4' table.

Again the scenarios need a rewrite, and that has been underway for a long while but I haven't been afforded the opportunity to see the in process rules as they are now.  One thing that could work for Tau in that sort of scenario would be for us to amend the Tau fleet rules so that Gravity Hooks would cause ships arriving from reserve to also show up with their escorts in tow, so you would have groups showing up in tandem.  Just tossing out an idea.

Overall great questions, I hope I helped.

Offline Lotus

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2017, 10:24:00 AM »
to #3: Ship =/= Ordnance. The answer is no.

Offline Bozeman

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 11:37:22 PM »
Because fleet lists are made after determining scenario, you have to tailor your fleet to the scenario.  For the old Tau, you're pretty slow, so try your best to take large squadrons of Defender escorts, and to stick near the board edges.  Go on AAF to get closer to friendly markers.  Don't be afraid to disengage if you're outclassed.  Again, not every scenario is balanced for every fleet.  Space Marines are better at Exterminatus, Eldar are better at Escalating Engagement.

Also, try to take ships with long range batteries against the Eldar.  Sure, you'll be all the way on the right column, but each die you roll is a 50% chance of straight damage.  Lock on for more terror.  Make them think twice about coming close.  A squadron of 3 Merchant class Kel'Shan configuration ships gives you 18 batteries at 45cm AND the option for a squadron of 6 Orcas.  Two Tolku Configuration Hero cruisers give you 24 batteries at 45cm and ordnance support.  Sadly, in Escalating Engagement any Messenger class escorts that you have by themselves are separate squadrons... so they come in separately... dang.

Be creative and try new things.  No fleet is really BAD (possibly Tyranids, who are somehow slower than Tau) so make sure to tailor your fleet to the scenario and keep your eyes on the prize.

Offline Andrew_NZ

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2017, 01:00:17 AM »
Thanks for the rule interpretations, and advice.

Also, try to take ships with long range batteries against the Eldar.  Sure, you'll be all the way on the right column, but each die you roll is a 50% chance of straight damage.  Lock on for more terror.  Make them think twice about coming close.  A squadron of 3 Merchant class Kel'Shan configuration ships gives you 18 batteries at 45cm AND the option for a squadron of 6 Orcas.  Two Tolku Configuration Hero cruisers give you 24 batteries at 45cm and ordnance support.  Sadly, in Escalating Engagement any Messenger class escorts that you have by themselves are separate squadrons... so they come in separately... dang.

Not sure what you mean by a 50% chance of straight damage.  Say 18 firepower from the 3 Merchants, which at 45 cm, and Eldar Shadow Fields, makes it likely full right column - as you say.  So you get to roll 4 dice.  With Eldar Armour at 5+ that gives 1.33 likely hits.  Likely two are absorbed by the shields so no damage caused and anybody else is stuck shooting through blast markers.  Have I missed something?

I think I have only once or twice managed to shoot at Mark's Eldar in the 30 - 45 cm range band.  That has sadly made the tracking gear on the Messengers essentially useless since the Eldar have been shooting me rather than using Attack Craft (so not use for a turret re-roll either).

Thinking twice about getting close made me laugh - quietly to myself.  I tend to think of Mark as a very Orc-ish sort of Eldar Commander.  Or perhaps just an Eldar in the spirit of Nelson.  Second Thoughts, not in the vocabulary.

Thought that all of a "division" (one of five) came in together, "all the ships represented by that marker". So a Messenger would come in with the rest of its division even if it was in a "squadron" by itself.

Anyway.  The Tau fleet are even now powering up their (?) Fusion Plants (?) and gathering for battle.  Using the Messenger craft as Stealth Insertion vessels sounds like a good thematic option, . . .

Offline Bozeman

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2017, 11:43:33 PM »
Unless I'm completely off my rocker, all Eldar armour is 4+ and they have no shields.  So, in your scenario, you'd get two likely hits, with criticals on a 4+.  That's enough to make any Eldar think about bracing for impact VERY hard.  Lock on to make it 3 likely hits, and you'll cripple most cruisers in one go.


Offline horizon

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2017, 09:41:47 PM »
Under official rules craftworld eldar have 5+ armour or am I goofing now?

Andrew is clearly using either MMS or revised edition.

Offline Seahawk

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2017, 10:16:52 PM »
Only Iyanden ships are 5+ armor (Flame of Asuryan, Dragonship, and Wraithship); all other Eldar ships are 4+ armor. This has never been changed to my knowledge.

Offline horizon

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2017, 01:06:32 PM »
phew.

But with the mention of shields he is using MMS or the revised/X/whatever fan rules for Eldar.

Offline Andrew_NZ

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 05:41:57 PM »
Yes, we have been using the MMS Eldar, and switched to the BFG:XR files.

Can easily see how fighting MSM Eldar would make 45 cm fire power important.
And armour 4+ with no shields make the 50% damage entirely understandable.
Thanks.

Latest game report on the other topic.

Offline Bozeman

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 12:45:19 AM »
*checks 2010 update*

Well I'll be damned, they DO have 5+ armour!  I even knew that when I created my BFG guide, but forgot!

*goes to ebay to buy more Craftworld Eldar*

Offline Seahawk

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Re: Some Rules Queries
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 12:47:01 AM »
Definitely need to preface rules questions with exactly what rules you're using, be it original, 2010, or fan stuff. 😉