What do we know about Heresy-era ships?

[carlisimo]

The books Scars and The Path of Heaven, both about the White Scars during the Horus Heresy, have inspired me to build a small fleet.  Probably not a full fleet, since I have 1500 points of Blood Angels in progress.  Good books, by the way.  Not enough space combat that I'd say you should read them just because you play BFG, but there is some.  It's also the first time I've identified with a legion (or M41 chapter) of Space Marines - aloof, contemplative, disorganized, none of that "not one step back" attitude.

Anyway, a lot of the HH books mention Gloriana-class battleships - every legion seems to have had one as their flagship.  But there isn't much information yet, and even less consistency.  Forge World's third HH book has a couple of profiles of Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists ships at the Battle of Phall, including an IW Gloriana-class battleship that look roughly like a battle barge but bigger (they show it next to a Cobra for scale). 

It's a more official source than the Maccrage's Honour visual novel, which portrays the Ultramarines' Gloriana-class flagship as an Emperor-class ship.  The Visions of Heresy books have artwork that looks old and outdated, but it shows a number of legion flagships (including Horus's Vengeful Spirit) in the Imperial Navy battleship style too.  The White Scars novels don't go into detail, but they do mention identifying their ships by sight by their white prows, which also suggests the IN aesthetic.

That FW book also shows the Contrador, a "Legate-class" Iron Warriors battle barge that looks like a compact battle barge, and the Tribune, a "Victory-class" Imperial Fists battle barge that looks like a Vengeance grand cruiser but with an armored prow, torpedo tubes, and a "planetary assault petard" - a big dorsally-mounted gun-looking thing.

The White Scars novels say that all of their ships have been modified for speed (many of the primarchs emphasized one aspect of design), at the expense of lance range and troop/dropship capacity.  The books also mention lances a lot more than other weapon types.  I'm tempted to build an Apocalypse, but use Desolator rules as a Venerable Battle Barge.  That way I get my fast battleship with lances that don't shoot as much as they should (4 each side instead of 6) because all the power's being diverted to the engines.  The Desolator's torpedoes also make more sense than a nova cannon in M31.  The downside is that using one ship as another is confusing.  It irks me, but I can't see the Desolator model looking the part - it just exudes Chaos, both in the details and in the overall shape.

Escorts will be Novas, since the main character is in a frigate with a single prow-mounted lance.  I might turn to Shapeways and get some Grey-Knight looking strike cruisers and remove the symbols and bridge, and stick old Chaos cruiser bridges on them. 

Sorry about the wall of text. 

[horizon]

All those books really messed up the already skewed history of space ships and their designs in the timeline of Battlefleet Gothic/40k.

If only BFG original source material is used then the Emperor would be out of it. The IN would use the Chaos models for most parts. The space marine vessels (thus strike cruiser and nova in your example) are designs from after the Heresy.

And the Desolator model does work as a venerable battle barge:

[carlisimo]

You're right, it works better than I expected!  Sweet paintjob, too.

I could've sworn it had skulls along the back, but yours has arrowheads.  Did they actually make separate hulls for the Despoiler and Desolator??

[horizon]

Can't remember. I did some filing on the model on the prow. And removed the eight pointed stars.

Here you can see my regular desolator and some further down the page the despoiler. Hulls seem identical, yes.
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=22.45


Also: Marines use skulls as well.

[Thinking Stone]

It looks like your second link may not have worked, @horizon! The Space Marine fleet is very snazzy, though (and the Desolator fits right in, especially with the very Marine-ish arrows)!

I thought the BFG rulebook mentioned pre-Heresy Emperors? The space hulk Incalculate Evil (retrofitted into Divine Right after rediscovery on M36) was thought to be in the warp for ten millennia, suggesting it was operating in M26. The Legatus Stygies was initially laid down in M30 but pesky heretics delayed the completion until M32. I kind of thought the idea was Emperors were suspiciously Dark Age-ish (which is why they're regarded so highly in M41).

As the ever-charming 4chan notes, however , the designs of the Chaos and Imperial navies are quite different for supposedly being a constant evolution of ship design. Perhaps Chaos designs represent a different Forge World pattern to Mars?

In any case, I do wish they'd been a bit more consistent with older background in the newer Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games offerings. Personally, I prefer the smaller, 'more reasonable' versions of the original ship conceptions.


Anyway, some food for thought,
Thinking Stone

[horizon]

awkward. Added the link.

[Malika]

To quote Laurie Goulding, one of the editors over at BL who is deeply involved with GW/BL/FW's Horus Heresy line:

Battlefleet Gothic shouldn't be used as a benchmark for Warhammer 40,000 or Horus Heresy ships - the battle fleet featured in it is merely the one from the war in the Gothic Sector in 142.M41 (i.e. the 12th Black Crusade). Imperial forces were completely cut off from reinforcements for over a decade, IIRC.

It's like taking a snapshot of the British Navy fleet in 1864 and then using it as official intelligence for your modern day invasion of Plymouth... 

[Itsacon]

The background often mentions that a Battle Barge is not so much a specific ship model, as more of a designation for battle-ship sized craft used by the Astartes. The only requirements are lots of launch bays. That would indeed make the Emperor Class a good basis to start modifications (increase speed, add orbital weaponry).

Strike Cruisers are clearly derived from IN light cruisers like the Dauntless (Armada even shows a picture of a Dauntless as one).

The Gloriana class was indeed a larger version of the current Battle Barge, Lexicanum has a nice illustration

[Malika]

Regarding the Glorianas, here's what Laurie Goulding has to say on them:

Basically, the Mechanicum made 20 bespoke Gloriana-class ships, one for each Legion, as gifts for the primarchs. These varied in size and armament to reflect the unique nature of each Legion.

They are NOT the only Glorianas in existence.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1932&view=findpost&p=22144768

And here some more info.

[Thinking Stone]

To quote Laurie Goulding, one of the editors over at BL who is deeply involved with GW/BL/FW's Horus Heresy line:

Battlefleet Gothic shouldn't be used as a benchmark for Warhammer 40,000 or Horus Heresy ships - the battle fleet featured in it is merely the one from the war in the Gothic Sector in 142.M41 (i.e. the 12th Black Crusade). Imperial forces were completely cut off from reinforcements for over a decade, IIRC.

It's like taking a snapshot of the British Navy fleet in 1864 and then using it as official intelligence for your modern day invasion of Plymouth... 

It's always cool to see what people are thinking 'behind-the-scenes'! I definitely agree that all background points towards Battlefleet Gothic almost certainly having different designs to other battle fleets (even if just due to the development of sector fleets in relative isolation and relatively unique circumstances). But I had always thought part of the setting was that ships don't really change over the short span of a millennium (in a universe where Space Marines can use bits that are nearly 10 000 years old in their armour, for example, or documented examples of capital ships of great antiquity moving between different sector fleets).

I think the analogy comparing the British Navy of 1864 to the modern navy is fair for comparing Heresy-era and M41 (with the caveat that technology, on average, has stagnated—so talking more in terms of designs) but the galaxy is a ginormous place that has only a weak central administration. Ten years without outside influences made little difference to ship designs during some of our real history, let alone in the context of such a vast, diverse galaxy! And there's always the point when context (annoyingly or lovingly ) steps in: the Napoleonic Wars are so different from the concept of a Black Crusade that the only real comparison we can make is stealing some of the concepts of one to help in inventing the other

But, in the end, each person can choose the background interpretation they like best! As long as there are cathedral-starships, pointy red ships, scratch-built metal ships, and various stylish alien ships, everyone can be happy!

Thinking Stone

[Itsacon]

A good analogy is probably that comparing Battlefleet Gothic with (for example) Battlefleet Armageddon is like comparing the British and the Portugese navy from the 17th century. Sure, there are similarities, both in concepts and ships. But in the end, they are very different.

[Jimmy Zimms]

^this^

Also when ships can take a generation to construct and launch, 10 years isn't a big deal. The thing about Battlefleet Gothic being, well, the fleet of the Gothic sector is apt though missing the mark. I mean, we've got models showing off differences for two other segmentums, Solar (the Voss/Armageddon fleets and ships) and the Rogue Trader cruiser was stated to actually be what ships laid down in the Kar Duniash fleetyards look like (akak Kar Duniash pattern).

Now that doesn't mean in a giant galaxy spanning civilization that there's not hundreds if not thousands of distinctive styles, patterns, and classes of ships out there let alone character / unique ships and makes. It's a big galaxy and we've got  room to play with. Now, the make up, composition, and tactics of the Gothic fleet should be in no way binding on other sectors but that's not really the issue in fandom.

[Thinking Stone]

@Itsacon, @Jimmy Zimms I agree! The use of Standard Template Constructs in the background seems to suggest that 'Imperial technology' is generally conserved across the galaxy but 'decoration' can be completely different even with the same backbone.

Thinking Stone

[horizon]

lol. That comment the horus heresy line dude is keeping his own things clean.

Negating Battlefleet Gothic for that is too easy. Because the game Battlefleet Gothic (he refers to the sector fleet) has more battlefleets with lists for all main sectors. And all those sectors have their distinct designed vessels (Voss prow, Kar Duniash design for example). BFG provides fleet lists with statistics for all sector fleets.
Not only for use at the certain moment in time (Gothic War). Because Armada already uses a different time setting.

Heck, Battlefleet Koronus is set at the 'end time' point for 40k and still uses the template which the game Battlefleet Gothic provides.

Those writers and their writing freedom!