The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (New Years 2022 Update!)

[Green_Squad_Leader]

I actually like the kustomizability of Ork ships, I feel that its a strength of the faction and one of its cooler unique characteristics.  I do think that we could do with more options for Battlecruisers and A Kustomizable Battleship, but I feel that this method you're proposing adds a lot of needless pages and text.  The clan upgrades also seem a lot better with the changes already proposed, I'm getting ready to playtest them.  If they prove clunky then we can try something else.

If you look at it this way the orks have 1 battleship, it just has 4 slight variatn builds with different names.  We could totally create a bunch of variant builds of Ork Kroozers, and I'm open to doing so, but I feel it doesn't really add much to the game.  I agree on the shields thing though, Kroozers and up essentially come with it glued on.

[blekinge]

Ahh, Green Leader, apparently I did not express my idea very well.

I did not want to reduce the kustomizability of the Orks.

What I wanted to show was that the "Cheap" upgrades are not really cheap, and many of them should be free, rather than costing 5-15 points.

Rather than trying to balance the upgrades (which is not easy) we should try to make a few balanced ships. And then from them work back to find the costing of the upgrades.

Example
Da Shoota
Kill Kroozer 165
Kustom Force Field 15
Prow Zapp guns 5
Port/Starboard Zapp Guns 20
205 points in total

Now, this ship is NEVER worth 205 points.

These are the weapons it ended up with
Prow Gunz 45cm D6+6 Front
Prow Zapp Gunz 30cm D3+1 Left

Port Gunz 30cm 6 Left
Port Zapp Gunz 30cm D3+1 Left

Starboard Gunz 30cm 6 Right
Starboard Zapp Gunz 30cm D3+1 Right

The side batteries are equivalent to the Lunar class
The front batteries are probably about equivalent as well.
On average it has the same amount of shields
It has +1 turret but 4+ rear armour for bombers.
It has worse LD than a Lunar

And it costs 25 points more than the Lunar.

So, we now know that this configuration is overcosted.
Looking at Murder Class we see that it can change it's batteries to lances for no change in cost. If we applied the same option here, we would save exactly 25 points.
The zapp kroozer would be costed like the lunar it resembles. And we now know that the zapp gun sidegrade should be priced at 0 points. 

[blekinge]

And another example

Da Long Range Killa
Terror Ship 185
Prow Torpedo Launcha 10
Kustom Force Field 15
210

Prow Gunz 45cm D6+4 Front
Prow Torpedoes 30cm D6+2
Port Gunz 30cm 6 Left
Starboard Gunz 30cm 6 Right
4 Launch Bays

Comparing this ship to the Dictator Class (210 pts), we see a strong likeness.
Same side batteries
Prow torpedoes are about equal
Launch bays are equal
Shields are equal
The prow guns are not found on the Dictator
LD is worse on the Terror Ship, and very important for a ship this dependent on Reload Ordnance

All in all, the price seems fair. So the options used here are probably correctly costed

[blekinge]

And yet another example

Da Boarder
Kill Kroozer 165
Kustom Force Field 15
Soopa Boosta 25 (To get there)
Kustom Tractor field 10 (So we can do ram-boarding)
This one costs 215 points
Then add one or more of (Klan Goff, MANz, Warboss)

I can think of no equivalent ship in any fleet. Chaos can get close with their Boarding Result bonus and fast ships. But still, Ram-Boarding is an ork-only technique.

Now, this ship is close range. It replaced none of it's heavy gunz so range will be an issue. It is fast with the soopa boosta.

Still, to actually ram/board with this ship, it needs to end a turn about 30 cm from the enemy (25cm speed + 4D6 AAF). One bad shield roll then and it has to brace for impact. And this means no AAF next turn.

And if it actually manages to board, Green Squad Leader have shown that it is not that impressive
10HP vs. 8 HP + 2 Turrets
To make this ship scary, it needs a Warboss, Goffs or MANz.

So, 215 points seems like a LOT for this ship.
35 points comes from the soopa boosta and tracktor beam. But without these upgrades, the boarding idea of this ship is not.
If the soopa boosta upgrade replaced the side heavy gunz, we could perhaps price it at 10 pts.
And if the traktor beam replaced the prow heavy gunz, we could price this at 0 pts.
This would put the price of this ship at a more reasonable 190

[blekinge]

About Mob Rule

Is the point of the rule to make orks somewhat more reliable or to encourage very big squadrons?
I think that we need to rethink what we want with this rule.

I very much like the decentralized theme in the proposal by Xcaliber

While an Ork escort squadron has at least five remaining vessels, it may attempt a command check even if one has already been failed this turn.

I would go further and just make this a general rule for the entire fleet

Ork ships and squadrons may attempt a command check even if one has already been failed this turn.

This should offset their bad LD, so that once failure does not cascade onto other squadrons.

[AJCHVY]

The issue with that is orks are supposed to be more unreliable with their leadership rolls. Giving them a  re-roll is a huge bonus that to me doesn't feel appropriate for them.

They the get auto pass on all ahead full to represent their willingness to drive forward regardless of casualties and attempt to ram/board. Trying to get them to lock on or reload ordnance puts you at a risk of failing when you could instead just drive forward and board them.

Yes it sucks when you fail the key reload ordnance, or even the more important brace, but that is what you get when you play orks.

Also orks have access to the most and cheapest fleet re-rolls.

[blekinge]

Clanz:
> Clan upgrades are purchased on a per-commander basis. To buy any clan affiliations for your fleet, you must first pay +30pts for clan support, which unlocks the options for individual commanders. (Thus, the first clan upgrade you buy has an additional cost, to offset its wider applicability).
> A commander's clan affiliation (or lack thereof) applies to every ship under his authority, determined as follows:

• A commander always has authority over his own ship and those of his squadron.
• The Boss with the biggest ship (Space Hulk > Battleship > Cruiser > Rok > Escort) has authority over all other ships in the fleet, except those under the authority of a different commander.

> A ship can only ever have one clan affiliation, and a squadron may never have multiple commanders with different clan affiliations. Note that a ship's clan does not change during the course of a game, regardless of any commander's status. Finally, a commander's re-rolls may not be used for ships or squadrons with a different clan affiliation (commanders and vessels without a clan are exempt from this restriction).

> The bonuses are as follows (and cost +20pts each, except Snakebites):
Goffs: +1Ld to ramming attempts. When initiating boarding, the enemy ship does not add its turret strength to its boarding value.
Evil Suns: +5cm to speed and minimum turn distance when not touching blast markers.
Bad Moons: Unchanged (May re-roll one random firepower/str weapon; combines with More Dakka).
Deathskulls: May add +1 or -1 to Critical Damage rolls received. A Deathskulls commander may buy looted torps for his ship for +10pts instead of +20pts.
Blood Axes: +1Ld (Ork vessels only, not looted ships) until it fails its first Ld test.
Snakebites: +1 Assault point when scoring during Planetary Assault. This clan affiliation may be given to any ship or squadron without a commander, for no extra cost. This overrides any other clan affiliation the ship would have.

I REALLY like the fleet wide clan bonuses. So, the clan of the commander is the clan of the fleet. Only ships/squadrons with characters can have a different clan.


About my Klan bonuses

Goff: +1 Boarding VALUE. +1 LD when Ramming.
Goff hordes are usually numerous, so they add to the Boarding VALUE.
The symbol of the klan is the bull, so ramming bonus seems appropriate.

Evil Sunz: +1D6 when AAF. So they can do normal AAF.
Much less powerful than soopa boostas for all. And it still allows them great bursts of speed.

Bad Moons: +1 Turret (representing more ammo to use)
Bad Moon Ships have more kustom guns than any other ork ship.

Deathskulls: +1 LD to Reload Ordnance
They can build torpedoes out of anything. They loot part of their own ship to build more bombs and attack crafts and torpedoes.

Blood Axes: +1 LD to Lock On
This is a rarely seem order in ork fleets. But it is appropriate for the blood axes, which like to fight proper.

Snake Bites: +1 to Boarding RESULT
Read about these boyz http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wyrm-Killa_Tribe
The old ways are the be(a)st.

[blekinge]

The issue with that is orks are supposed to be more unreliable with their leadership rolls. Giving them a  re-roll is a huge bonus that to me doesn't feel appropriate for them.

They the get auto pass on all ahead full to represent their willingness to drive forward regardless of casualties and attempt to ram/board. Trying to get them to lock on or reload ordnance puts you at a risk of failing when you could instead just drive forward and board them.

Yes it sucks when you fail the key reload ordnance, or even the more important brace, but that is what you get when you play orks.

Also orks have access to the most and cheapest fleet re-rolls.

I didn't want them to get a reroll. Perhaps I did not understand the proposed rule correctly.

AFAIK, if you fail a special order check, no other ships can go on special orders this turn.
I wanted Mob Rule to override this, so that if one squadron failed to reload ordnance, another squadron could still try.

[AJCHVY]

The issue with that is orks are supposed to be more unreliable with their leadership rolls. Giving them a  re-roll is a huge bonus that to me doesn't feel appropriate for them.

They the get auto pass on all ahead full to represent their willingness to drive forward regardless of casualties and attempt to ram/board. Trying to get them to lock on or reload ordnance puts you at a risk of failing when you could instead just drive forward and board them.

Yes it sucks when you fail the key reload ordnance, or even the more important brace, but that is what you get when you play orks.

Also orks have access to the most and cheapest fleet re-rolls.

I didn't want them to get a reroll. Perhaps I did not understand the proposed rule correctly.

AFAIK, if you fail a special order check, no other ships can go on special orders this turn.
I wanted Mob Rule to override this, so that if one squadron failed to reload ordnance, another squadron could still try.

Yeah that is way different, I would be fine with allowing orks to try one order per squad/model. Re-rolls could be used as normal but each squad could get one order always.

[blekinge]

Yeah that is way different, I would be fine with allowing orks to try one order per squad/model. Re-rolls could be used as normal but each squad could get one order always.

Yes, exactly. It would go something like this
I try a Reload Ordnance on a Terror Ship
I pass
I try a Lock On on a squadron of Onslaught Attackships
I fail.
Now, with the existing system, I could try no further Special orders (Brace excepted, AAF excepted as there is no LD check) for any ships in my fleet.

I propose that Mob Rule should overrule this, so that the failure of a special order in one ship/squadron does not prevent another ship/squadron from attempting to go on a special order.
But the squadron that failed the special order still failed, and gets no special order this turn. Only, they do not get in the way of other squadrons trying to go on special orders.

[AJCHVY]

Yeah that is way different, I would be fine with allowing orks to try one order per squad/model. Re-rolls could be used as normal but each squad could get one order always.

Yes, exactly. It would go something like this
I try a Reload Ordnance on a Terror Ship
I pass
I try a Lock On on a squadron of Onslaught Attackships
I fail.
Now, with the existing system, I could try no further Special orders (Brace excepted, AAF excepted as there is no LD check) for any ships in my fleet.

I propose that Mob Rule should overrule this, so that the failure of a special order in one ship/squadron does not prevent another ship/squadron from attempting to go on a special order.
But the squadron that failed the special order still failed, and gets no special order this turn. Only, they do not get in the way of other squadrons trying to go on special orders.

Actually you would have to do AAF first, as it is an order you just auto pass it. If you fail an order before resolving any AAF you can't do them later in the order phase.

[Xca|iber]

blekinge has it right about what my proposal for Mob Rule would do - namely that your escort squadrons could still attempt special orders even if you've already failed a command check (assuming they have sufficient squadron size). It's not giving them a re-roll, just protecting them from other ship/squadron's bad leadership.

I'm not going to make it a fleet-wide rule though - that is much too powerful. The point of Mob Rule is not to give reliability across the board for all ships. The rule represents the natural ability of Orks to function better in large numbers, and reward gameplay (on both sides of the table) that matches this concept.

So you get a bonus for having large escort squadrons (in that they are each protected from leadership failure among the rest of the fleet as long as they are above 'critical mass,' much like how the Mob Rule in some editions of 40k gave Orks Fearless above a certain model count). This has a secondary effect of allowing a player to 'ignore' their large escort squadrons when giving out orders, since a failure on a cap ship won't prevent them from taking a special order. This improves reliability in a general sense, as it protects the player from situations where they need an escort squadron to use orders (like reload), but can't afford the risk of missing orders on their cap ships if they attempt on the escorts first.

I REALLY like the fleet wide clan bonuses. So, the clan of the commander is the clan of the fleet. Only ships/squadrons with characters can have a different clan.

Thanks. I think it's definitely desirable to have the Clanz be able to take a front and center role in the Ork fleet if the player desires it. This way makes it much less cost-prohibitive.

About my Klan bonuses

Goff: +1 Boarding VALUE. +1 LD when Ramming.
Goff hordes are usually numerous, so they add to the Boarding VALUE.
The symbol of the klan is the bull, so ramming bonus seems appropriate.

The problem here is that +1 boarding value is hardly ever useful. Making it ignore enemy turret values provides a more consistent damage bonus to boarding actions. This can be thought of as their great numbers overwhelms the ability of enemy turrets to effectively defend against the boarding attempt. Similarly, this also encourages more aggressive gameplay, since it only works when boarding is initiated. If you try to sit back and wait, you don't get any bonus.

Evil Sunz: +1D6 when AAF. So they can do normal AAF.
Much less powerful than soopa boostas for all. And it still allows them great bursts of speed.

This is a decent alternative I'd be willing to consider.

Bad Moons: +1 Turret (representing more ammo to use)
Bad Moon Ships have more kustom guns than any other ork ship.

While this is simpler, I think allowing re-rolls on random firepower/str weapons is still good, and so far it's had the least complaints against it in terms of functionality - so changing it just to be a tiny bit simpler doesn't seem 100% necessary.

Deathskulls: +1 LD to Reload Ordnance
They can build torpedoes out of anything. They loot part of their own ship to build more bombs and attack crafts and torpedoes.

I'm a little hesitant to hand out +1 Ld bonuses to every clan. Ork leadership is still supposed to be worse overall compared to other races (except for Blood Axes, where it represents their "un-Orky" behavior). Also here, the suggestion to allow modification of Crit Damage rolls synergizes very well with both Big Meks and Mad Meks, which matches with the idea of Deathskulls having lots of Meks aboard.

Blood Axes: +1 LD to Lock On
This is a rarely seem order in ork fleets. But it is appropriate for the blood axes, which like to fight proper.

+1 Ld for each ship/squadron until they fail a Ld test provides a more widely applicable bonus (and can still help with Lock On), and also does a good job representing the concept of Blood Axes using more kunnin' tactiks until the moment when the tactik's are done and they revert to their Orky ways.

Snake Bites: +1 to Boarding RESULT
Read about these boyz http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wyrm-Killa_Tribe
The old ways are the be(a)st.

The problem here is that Snakebites still aren't "space" Orks, and so there's not really any reason why they'd be that much better than others in actual space battles. Making it a +1 Assault point bonus (that can be applied wherever you need, for free) solves 2 problems: First, it gives Orks a useful scenario-specific tool (and one that is currently missing for an "assaulty" faction compared to SM or Tyranids). Second, it reflects the non-space nature of the Snakebites by rewarding their use as truly ground-oriented Orks.

Responses above in bold.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding the costs of upgrades, I'll take a look at the math that's been posted and see about changing around some of the costs.

[Green_Squad_Leader]

blekinge I completely agree with you that Ork Ships are overcosted for what they are worth when you factor in kustom force fields and other upgrades.  Much like a shitty cell phone contract the sticker price looks reasonable but there are hidden charges.

there is of course always a risk of making their ships TOO cost effective, but honestly we are quite far from that right now.  The root of the issue is the 2 extra hit points Orks have on their cruisers, but the single shield and low rear armor effectively eliminates the advantage this otherwise would give.

Terror Ships especually are overpriced. The loss of firepower REALLY hurts them and in most cases I've found that Fighta Bombas are not that great. In about 7 games that I've taken one it has died very quickly without accomplishing anything.

Basha's are downright horrible for their price. They seem to be designed to be equivalents to Dauntlesses but they really underperform.

As for Kustom Force Fields being auto includes I have to agree. I haven't been using them specifically to test whether I can make cruisers work without them. So far the answer is a resounding no.

My recommendations for cruisers are that we eliminate the current upgrade for Kustom Force Fields by giving all Ork Capital Ships a D3 shield value (Working exactly as KFFs do now.)  The 15 point cost savings that grants helps to fix the "dishonest" sticker price they have now.

As for Zzap Guns I think that making them free IS too good, the current build is simply better than Heavy Gunz in most cases. That said I think that they are worth 5-10 points for capital ships, making then free for Slaughters is fine.

 Prow Torpedoes are a trickier call, but with low leadership and random shots I think that they.could be made free or +5 points.

Regarding cruiser variants I think that changing the stuff i already mentioned would largely fix the other issues.  I would like to see the option to swap out Heavy Gunz for Gunz, for a points cost ideally as it would be more reliable.  I also think that Terror Ships should have a random Launch Bay capacity (D2+1 for each bay).  The Battleships and Battlecruiser have this sort of thing, I think its just an idea they came up with later in the life of the game.  In this case the Randomness would help give the ships a bit more potency, aa Fighta Bombers are really hard to swarm enough of to be able to effectively try to engage enemy ships in any meaningful way as is.

As for ramming I think its good as is, but an alternative idea to giving Ork capital vessels Horned Prows for free would be to give them a brace for impact saving throw when ramming. Just tossing that out as a racial buff.

Your idea for Evil Suns is interesting and we can certainly try it, otherwise I don't like your clan ideas much.

As for thr Mob Rule one thing we could try would be to use a variation of the Old 40k rule.  The idea could work like this:

"You may use the number of vessels in an Ork Escort Squadron in place of its leadership value (Max eight) when testing for special orders. Escort Squadrons may attempt Special Orders even if one has already been failed this turn."

Done that way the the player is encouraged to field large squadrons of Escorts which can effectively be ignored for orders.  Instead of setting an arbitrary number of ships for the ability to switch on and off the ability diminishes in value as you lose vessels.  When you think about it an Ork Escort Squadron isn't going to have 5+ vessels for very long once they engage, so the current version just won't get used that often. This change would make it always active but EXTREMELY unreliable, at least once you start to lose ships.

It also would set up choices for the Ork player as he loses ships.  Once you are at 5 or fewer ships in a squadron your "mob leadership" will usually be less than your normal leadership, so when do you choose to test?

The leadership 8 cap is intended to prevent the obviously broken 12 Onslaught squadron of doom with leadership 12 that will permanently be on Lock On Orders.

[horizon]

hmmmzzzllslss, just adding my bit here:

Never played as Orks but did against them (with Tau, AdMech, Eldar, Chaos iirc).

Lets go back to the main rulebook/armada: the problem was that the most effective fleet was the Terror Kroozer fleet. Escort wise the torpedo variant was highly effective (bring lots and even the D6 will max at one point). And cheap re-rolls...

So to be competitive one sided fleets happened. The Ork Hulk is ofcourse a different story.

With Compendium 2010 they added the Clanz things and Ld bonusses for big escort squadrons. And that did change a lot for the Ork fleet. They became a lot more versatile.

So, personally, I think the Ork fleet, since compendium 2010, is versatile and pretty well balanced. They are Orkish weird and perhaps some vessels need a slight tweak and some rules a clearer wording but that's it.
They're a capable fleet.

So... I am a bit puzzled about all this Ork talking at the moment. Don't get me wrong: discussion is good and perhaps I'm off.

[Green_Squad_Leader]

Horizon the current points costs aren't the same as the original ones in most cases, and most Ork weapons have been weakened to improve balance. The issues with the Ork Fleet are real, the reason iys being discussed so much is that Orks are the most recent faction to get worked on. Most of the other factions are in far better states at the moment.

Note too that most of the proposed changes to Orks in the last few weeks aren't buffs, they are balance tweaks which in many cases actually have weakened the previous version of abilities. Zzap guns were changed from a 4+ lances to a 5+ lances for example.  Whenever changes like that are made there will be 2nd order effects which need to be addressed, hence the current discussions.

The points cost issues are essentially that over time Ork ships have been slowly weakened such that their effective points cost (with obligatory upgrades) is quite high.  In a recent match a space marine player had 3 escorts less than I did AND a battlebarge with an upgraded commander and terminators on his capitals. I had a barebones ork fleet. That makes no sense, the ork ships simply aren't as good.

The previous iterations of many rules introduced in Armada and other publications really arent very user friendly, clanz are the best example of this, and so a rewrite really was needed.

The goal of the changes is to boost the value and more effectively cost the smaller Ork ships without making them too effective. Overall I feel we are moving quickly in the right direction.