The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (New Years 2022 Update!)

[Xca|iber]

@horizon: You give me too much credit heh... all of the current Gift rules in BFG:R AdMech are from afterimagedan's version. The clause I was talking about was in my earlier post as just a suggestion, but I agree that it may not be necessary.

I am in agreement that adding points to gifts is bad. Just too complex to deal with different prices for battleships, cruisers, etc, and probably would need different prices for each gift too. Not a good solution.

Based on what you've said, I think my current plan would therefore be:

-Gifts are still free.
-Still 1 per ship as normal.
-Gift is chosen for each capital ship at the start of the game (instead of rolling randomly and allocating)
-EER, GTM, and Adv. Engines stay the same as afterimagedan's version (fully passive effects).
-AWR only while on Lock On, Adv Shields only while on BFI.
-FDT loses the +2 Turrets effect.

So this way, AWR and Adv Shields are not usable all the time and there is no benefit to taking too many FDTs. Of course, we are still left with EER and GTM being the least desirable and the most "thick" on rules text.

One brainstorm idea I had (in addition to the above) was this:

-EER changed to: Any time the ship reduces a characteristic by 50%, it reduces it by 25% instead (for all special orders, crippling, etc) and all speed penalties worse than -5cm are treated as -5cm only.
-GTM replaced with: Inverted Graviton Field: Enemy ships must pass a Ld test on 3D6 in order to declare boarding or conduct teleport attacks against the ship. In addition, enemies attempting to ram the ship add +D6 to their "check course" Ld test result.

Ideally, these would be a little more desirable compared to before. With EER combining the old GTM ability, it makes it more generally usable (rather than only while crippled or only while on orders). The graviton field ability adds something different that can protect against the AdMech special weakness, at the cost of not getting AWR or FDT or whatever.

Thoughts?

[Blacksails]

While I think that if we had infinite time and near perfect ability to balance things that a points system would ultimately be best, I think its way too much work and overly complicated for the small balance benefits it would bring.

That said, I can't really complain about the current system.  Having the Archmagos pick one for the command ship helps, and the pool plus selecting on Ld rolls of 6 helps a lot with creating a coherent fleet.  Maybe there could be an addition like the sub-commanders most fleets have, but instead of adding +1Ld, it could allow the player to select the upgrade they want and/or a free re-roll for that ship only.  Cost it somewhere in the realm of 20-30pts and restrict it to 0-3 like most other similar options.

Alternatively, after rolling for gifts but before deploying/squadroning capital ships, maybe the owning player can form a squadron and have the same gift apply to all ships in the squadron selected from one of them that has been randomly rolled or selected (if they rolled a 6 on one of them).  I know that I'd be thinking of running a squadron of Lunars, and I'd prefer for them to have the same upgrade, so that's where I'm coming from.

Food for thought anyways.  Loving this by the way, as is my group.  Can't wait for the campaign/scenario rules so our group can embark down that path.  Is there a rough time estimate for that?  Hate to be a bother, sorry.

[horizon]

Hey,

Still unsure on that picking what you like. Advanced shielding only on BFI suddenly becomes a lot less interesting as an option.

I agree with blacksails that the current pool systems works best. The magos may pick, a roll of 6 for Ld may pack.

With the sub-magos idea: just cost him +10 pts then and make it pick what you like. Mainly because they can be a total waste if your dice rolls are good anyway.

[Blacksails]

Well the sub-Magos could cost a little more and also provide a free re-roll for the ship, so it isn't completely wasted if you flip a 6 at the beginning of the game.

Still a little bit of points for a guarantee and a re-roll is something I'd pay for some ships.

To further refine that idea, would the sub-magos over-rule the stipulation of rolling a 6 for Ld lets you pick a refit to add to the pool, or would you simply pick a refit for the sub-magos ship after assigning all other ships' refits.

To illustrate, currently you generate a pool, some of them random, some of them you picked if you rolled a 6, then assign them where you want.  With the sub-magos, if you're picking the refit before Ld, you'd be denying a refit from the pool.  But if you pick the refit after all Ld rolls, you would essentially be discarding a few of the have-not refits from the pool.

I don't know if I'm explaining this well.  I'll come up with a practical example for the two methods in a bit.

[Xca|iber]

I hear what you're both saying, and I would agree that the current system works (after all, it was passed by vote back during the original BFG:R development), but it just feels... I dunno, clunky.

Looking at it, we've got:
-Archmagos picks one for his ship.
-Ships that roll '6' for Ld get to pick one that gets thrown in the pool.
-Other ships generate one randomly for the pool.
-Then you have to allocate stuff from the pool to each ship.

It's a lot of steps, and isn't very intuitive unless you know the history behind the process. I'd really like to get away from the random generation, but as horizon points out, this requires weighing each Gift and imposing limits or changing functionality, otherwise everybody just takes AWR/FDT. The addition of Secondary Commanders which allow for a choice (either like the Archmagos or a "max Ld" ship) is interesting, but it makes the process even slower (and/or more complex, depending on implementation). It's feasible of course, but I don't want to jump the gun before evaluating all the options first.

I'm sure there's a better solution around here somewhere... I'll keep taking a look at things and see if I can come up with something more. In the meantime, rest assured that nothing will change w/ the actual PDF until a final decision is made (if a change is desired at all). Anyway, please keep posting ideas/comments - the feedback is very helpful.

Thanks!

[Blacksails]

So what do we have as options?

-Current system - Works, a little clunky/unintuitive.

-Points - Ultimately the ideal solution, but so much work and complicated having to individualize point costs for every ship that it would be too much for too little reward.

-Passive/Active - Gives player full control, but still tilts favour to just taking AWR with the occasional FDT.  Problem still exists that bonuses to firepower and durability will generally be better than being more maneuverable or not being crippled as easily.

-SubMagos/Machine Spirit - Purchasable upgrade that mimics the Magos in terms of picking the refit, and possibly having a re-roll for the ship.  Otherwise still rolling as the current system.

Part of the problem is that refits like the Improved Engines are really only desirable on a squadron of faster cruisers anyways, or you take it fleet wide, which comes at the expense of the direct and meaningful benefit of AWR.  I wouldn't recommend nerfing AWR, because if anything, I feel that that upgrade is the standard of usefulness (closely followed by Advanced Shields in their current incarnation and having one or two FDT is very useful).  The thing about those three upgrades in particular is that they provide consistent, flexible, and universally useful benefits almost regardless of the fleet you'll face.  If anything, FDT is mostly useless against Necrons and any other ordnance light fleet, but its nice to have on a support carrier like a Dictator.

I could see Advanced Engines on the Light Cruisers to make them into pseudo Dauntlesses, but I never find myself wanting GSM or EER because the first is partially situational for orders I try and avoid using anyways, and the second because I'd rather have the upfront defensive bonus of the shields and avoid being crippled altogether.

I'm with you on removing random generation, but I can't think of a different way than the above methods, short of just balancing the refits so perfectly they don't need a points cost and players can choose freely.  Really, I think GSM and EER need a little more love or replaced by whole new ideas.  AWR being on LO only is a nerf, but not unreasonable.  AS being BFI only makes it too unattractive and I'd never voluntarily take it compared to AWR.

[Xca|iber]

We're definitely on the same page Blacksails 

Right now here's what I'm looking at in terms of changes, if a choice-based system is implemented (based on your and horizon's feedback):

-AWR only on Lock On (slight nerf, but seems like a trade for being able to guarantee getting it)
-FDT loses the +2 Turrets bonus (so there's no benefit to going overboard on FDT ships)
-AS, AE same as the book (these being the kinda middle-ground, one being a solid defensive choice and the other being an interesting "meta" build enabler)
-EER and GTM need to be reworked (they're the "bad" results on the random table and are just not desirable if you get to choose).

I'm also in favor of a Secondary Commander (I like your suggestion of "Machine Spirit") if a semi-random system is adopted.

In terms of showing love to EER and GTM, I think horizon said it well that we want to avoid the power-creep train, but at the same time I agree that they're so conditional, one seldom "wants" them on a ship. Naturally the goal would be to bring them up just a tad, without going totally bonkers.

For EER, I had suggested a couple of posts back to just roll GTM into EER as a single upgrade (without the re-roll 1's or pseudo-extra-hit), and also make the ship resistant to speed penalties (so max of -5cm regardless of blasts or damage/crippling). This way it still has utility while the ship is undamaged.

I'm not sure what you'd replace GTM with in that case though. The "graviton field" thing I suggested before was just something I came up with on the spot.

[Blacksails]

Rolling EER and GTM into one is certainly reasonable, as I think it just brings it up to being almost desirable.  Its still a little too conditional for my tastes, and if I was across the table from an opponent with a ship using that refit, I'd just avoid making it my primary target knowing it doesn't mind being crippled as much.  But it still doesn't offer an up front bonus, like all the other good choices.

Just had a thought.

So, FDT is situational, but makes for a great refit on a support ship in larger fleets.  Its unique in that way and I think works for that purpose.  Fluffy, functional, useful.  Most of the other refits are trying to be useful to any and all Mechanicus vessels, which I think is hurting us here.  What if we had a refit that focused more on a specific type of vessel, like say...carriers!  We have the Dictator, Empy, Oberon, and Defiant who all have launch bays but no real refit that helps them with any sort of launch bay buff.  Sure, you could give FDT to the Dictator, or a defensive buff, but that's not much of a choice in larger fleets with multiple carriers.

Enter the carrier refit.  Both the Empy and Oberon come with +1Ld which is awesome coupled with the likelihood your Magos will make his home there, giving you the sweet sweet Ld10 you need for RO.  What if we had a refit that either did that for all carrier types (or any ship, if you really want more Ld) and/or improved the strike craft on board.  Spitballing ideas here; Experimental Communications Array (ECA) = +1Ld (stacks with existing sensor arrays or would offer a free re-roll instead) and the ship strike craft all benefit from the Resiliant strike craft rules.

Now that's an upgrade I'd take.  Its probably too much, but I guess the ball is rolling now.

*Edit* Or we could take a page from the XR Necron book with the Shroud and its +1Ld fleet wide for enemies on orders.

[horizon]

Another +1Ld on an already +1Ld vessel is kinda pointless with enemy vessels also giving +1 Ld most of these days.

Okay, with blastmarker it might be handy but really worth the upgrade?

Not that I present another idea right now. Because I have to think about it. 

[Blacksails]

When you put it that way...I suppose.

I dunno, replace with re-rolls or something.

[Xca|iber]

Here's a thought: If we're removing the "random" aspect from the Gifts, there's no real reason for there to be six different options. From what I'm hearing, there's really not a whole lot of strategic incentive to take stuff other than AWR, AS, and FDT, no matter how much more powerful we make EER, GTM, and AE (unless you're going for a full-fleet meta-build).

So why not just do something like this:
-Each capital ship chooses between AWR (Lock On only version), FDT (no +Turret bonus), or AS (same as now).
-If the fleet is led by an Archmagos, he chooses one of the following fleet-wide capital-ship bonuses:
---EER: Any penalty that halves any of a capital ship's characteristics only causes a 25% reduction instead (still stacking normally).
---Adv Engines: All capital ships get +5cm speed and -5cm minimum turn distance. (No AAF bonus).

As an alternative, the fleet-wide bonus could be a purchased option for +X(?) points, in which case I'd add the following:
-EER: All speed penalties on capital ships more than -5cm are treated as -5cm.
-Adv Engines: Add back the +D6cm on AAF bonus.

How's that sound?

[Blacksails]

By the Emperor I think you've done it.

I mean, with a handful of tweaks to make sure its not overpowered, yeah, that's about the best idea I've read so far.

[Thinking Stone]

Hello everyone!

As per usual, Xca|iber, the work on BFG:XR is interesting and exciting!

Likes:
- Replacing the roll system with a well-balanced choice system like has been discussed here—I think it's a lot more elegant than the BFG:R method (whilst that one's effective) and I prefer it over points costs because of the difficulties in balancing their costs/desirability and because of the built-in cost mechanism already present.

- I did really like the active/passive split but it can be sacrificed for the greater good!

- Changing Advanced Weapon Relays to Lock On only. Synergises well with their intended role and also stops my brother from expodifying me every turn with double lance hits...

- Fleet Defence Turrets (I was going to suggest maybe a +1 turret bonus and the re-roll special rule but then I remembered Mechanicus ships already get more turrets)

- Archmagos options. It seems a little sad for the escorts to miss out (though they beat their Epic40K infantry cousins with void shields ) but I suppose that's how it's always been with the Mechanicus. I prefer the choice mechanism to the points mechanism, I think it's cleaner that way for difficult-to-price bonuses.

Suggestions:
- Perhaps another choice of Archmagos fleet-wide rule could be Advanced Attack Craft, making attack craft Resilient? I think this would be nifty to replace one of the less desirable upgrades in the same manner as FDTs under the old individual choice system but then you have to account for which ship launches which craft. This fleet-wide version could make for an interesting carrier fleet option for people who want it.

- Emergency Energy Reserves did conjure an idea of having something to do with Special Orders (maybe one ship per battleship per turn could pass automatically?) partly inspired by the Tindalos BFG Armada. Maybe that could sweeten the deal?

- It would be nice to avoid the direct overlap of Move-Move-Shoot Eldar holofields and Advanced Shields but if there's no better way to do it, it's not world-ending

- One other option to get rid of the problem of weak/powerful upgrades is to allow a ship to choose between them every turn. This could also allow situational ones like Advanced Shields to be linked to Bracing for Impact without gimping the ship. Of course, one would also have to make sure double-hit lances every turn aren't too powerful.... But, if nothing else, it would represent all the nifty Imperial relays, Dark Age technology, etc. that the Mechanicus keep hidden away....


Anyway, some food for thought,
Thinking stone

Editation: O, and one other thing, Xca|iber: is the Archmagos upgrade in addition to the upgrade that each ship can choose? I presume that would be made clear in the final document. Some nifty ships they would be indeed!

Edit x 2: And just saw an uncapitalised 'sword' on page 13, Gladius background entry.

[Xca|iber]

Suggestions:
- Perhaps another choice of Archmagos fleet-wide rule could be Advanced Attack Craft, making attack craft Resilient? I think this would be nifty to replace one of the less desirable upgrades in the same manner as FDTs under the old individual choice system but then you have to account for which ship launches which craft. This fleet-wide version could make for an interesting carrier fleet option for people who want it.

- Emergency Energy Reserves did conjure an idea of having something to do with Special Orders (maybe one ship per battleship per turn could pass automatically?) partly inspired by the Tindalos BFG Armada. Maybe that could sweeten the deal?

- It would be nice to avoid the direct overlap of Move-Move-Shoot Eldar holofields and Advanced Shields but if there's no better way to do it, it's not world-ending

- One other option to get rid of the problem of weak/powerful upgrades is to allow a ship to choose between them every turn. This could also allow situational ones like Advanced Shields to be linked to Bracing for Impact without gimping the ship. Of course, one would also have to make sure double-hit lances every turn aren't too powerful.... But, if nothing else, it would represent all the nifty Imperial relays, Dark Age technology, etc. that the Mechanicus keep hidden away....


Anyway, some food for thought,
Thinking stone

Editation: O, and one other thing, Xca|iber: is the Archmagos upgrade in addition to the upgrade that each ship can choose? I presume that would be made clear in the final document. Some nifty ships they would be indeed!

Edit x 2: And just saw an uncapitalised 'sword' on page 13, Gladius background entry.

Thanks for the comments!

Regarding your questions/suggestions:

-Yes, the archmagos fleet-wide bonus would be in addition to the upgrades for each capital ship. This is replacing the bonus (paid in the archmagos' cost) of being able to pick his ship's upgrade (which would no longer have any effect if the random generating system is removed).

-Fleet-wide attack craft upgrades could still be on the table (Blacksails also mentioned that as an idea on the previous page), but I want to be careful about climbing up the power creep ladder with fleet-wide resilient ACs... perhaps it would be only a 5+ or 6+ resilient save to balance it out.

-I'm not sure about boosting EER any further, on account of bloating the rules too much. Since it's a bonus that you'd get for free on every capital, I also want to keep it toned down. Perhaps if it's not desirable enough compared to fleet-wide Adv Engines, I could tone down the engines even further. So you'd have:
---EER: Armaments only reduced by 25% instead of 50% (for all types of penalty)
---Adv Engines: Minimum turn distance reduced by 5cm.
---Improved ACs (if included): 6+ Resilient save on all attack craft in the fleet.

-Advanced shields is actually different from the Eldar Holofields. Holofields cause the same column shift, but grant a save vs lances rather than limiting the hits. Same effective reduction (33% less hits, from either losing results of '4' or from a 5+ save), but different method. Also, holofields don't work vs ships within 15cm in the current rules.

-Choosing between upgrades is kinda what I was going for in my original idea, but the problem I encountered (and as horizon and Blacksails pointed out), was that the amount of power reduction necessary to balance out the ability to effectively have 3 or 4 upgrades simultaneously made none of the upgrades feel worthwhile.

-Regarding the typo, thanks for pointing it out; I'll fix it on my next editing pass.

[horizon]

I'll add more tomorrow but for now:

Resilient AC in a fleet that has high turrets plus an upgrade that boosts turrets? No way. I would advice 100% against such an idea.