Special Torps in Normal Games?

[Xca|iber]

A couple of questions about special torpedoes (the short burn, guided, melta, etc ones in Armada):

Are these supposed to be a generally allowed upgrade for everybody (barring the restrictions in their rules)? Should I feel fine about just taking these in game?

I've come from 40k where I got really tired of rolling for random upgrades in one-off games (traits, psychic powers, etc) so in that game we started just picking and choosing for casual games. Is that something that's reasonable for these torpedoes in BFG? Can we just pay the cost and choose which ones we want? I can understand that in a campaign, the notion of "appeals" makes sense that your chain of command might decide you aren't worth giving Vortex Torpedoes, but in one-off games it seems like you should be able to bring consistent equipment. If not, what kind of cost should be added to allow for choosing these?

I guess this is kinda getting into houserule territory, but I'm not a big fan of having fleet list options across multiple books (though I get having extra ships like the ASC). Basically, having upgrade options spread across the main book (scenario upgrades, etc), Armada (mines, special torps, torp bombers), and the fleet list itself gets a bit hard to keep track of for me. If these torps are okay to just choose for regular games, great. But otherwise I'm looking for a non-campaign solution to having to remember to look in Armada for my fleet upgrades plus having to roll randomly every game.

Thanks

[Bessemer]

Hi!

Yep. in a one-off game, you just pay the listed points to take special torpedoes. You will need to roll for which ones you get however, unless your opponent agrees to just letting you take what you want of course

I get what you're saying, and it can be a bugger to keep track, but rolling for torps is done for balance i think. If you could just choose from a list, would anyone ever choose short-burn over Vortex or Melta? And yes, getting Barrage Bombs outside of a Planetary Assault is a pain!

The increase or random stuff before a game is just one of the things that drove me from 40k too, but if GW actually had released a 2nd or subsequent edition of BFG, all these extra things would have been in one book. But that's a rant for another day...

[Xca|iber]

Thanks for the reply!

I guess I should come clean about the other reason I'm asking this question. I'm currently in the process of writing up a sort-of "Unified Collection of Rules" for my group to use (and mostly to bring in new players without overwhelming them with info about different editions, FAQs, revised vs. not, etc). The basic composition will be classic rules + 2010 Compendium + Armada, but using the BFG:R fleet lists. As part of this effort, I'm trying to squeeze all of the Main book, 2010, and armada into one document, which leads to my problem.

As a new-ish player myself, I know that having options spread across books can be a little bit of a pain, so one of my major project guidelines is to give players a "one-and-done" fleet book; i.e. all of your fleet's normal game options will be shown clearly in your fleet list, with the exception of specific scenario things (like planetary defenses) or "special/unique ships" like those found in stuff like Imperial Armor or the ASC.

So for integrating Armada, I have the issue of finding a way to keep options for torp bombers, minelayers, and special torps available (so as not to invalidate existing gameplay), but get the broad "everybody pays +X for these/roll on a table" out of the main rulebook and into the fleet lists.

At this point I'm resigned to probably going through and simply house-ruling when and where these things can be purchased (and for how much) on a faction by faction basis, but I don't want to accidentally end up too heavy handed and lose valuable gameplay potential, since I'm not really an expert on how much of an impact these torpedoes might/should have for each faction.

[Bessemer]

An excellent project!

The way I see it, you've really got two approaches for integrating Mines, Torpedo Bombers ans Special torps.

1. Add points costs to the end of each list, and add an appendix for rules to document after all Fleet lists.
2. Simply add the Appendix with costs and rules etc after all fleet lists.

I know you want to reduce clutter and information overload, but a big list of extras can put off some new players; mainly by them thinking they've got to read up on stuff as well as ships and fleet selection.
I'd go with the second, get a few games in, then let people take the extra Ordnance options.

But that's me. All the best with you and your group!

[Xca|iber]

For now I think that's probably what we'll do. I mean, we have electronic copies so it's not that difficult. That said, moving forward I'm probably going to work on a more "integrated" solution to deal with the issue.

Most likely this effort will yield some house-rules to simply make certain torpedoes/mines/torp bombers available to certain factions, on the basis of both fluff and balance (with the hope that not too many "meta" playstyles will be invalidated). I've started to have some thoughts on this based on looking through a lot of the different fleets' ordnance capabilities and their faction "flavor". I'll post my ideas tomorrow once it's not late at night and I'm a bit more coherent.

In any case, thanks for the advice so far!

[Xca|iber]

Alright so here's what I've been thinking: I divided each of the armada refits (Mines, Torp Bombers, Special Torps) into categories based on which factions make use of those refits. Looking at this made it a bit easier to see where the biggest issues were versus fleets that could integrate these options into their lists with relatively little fuss. The categories are: "Allowed" (for fleets that can use the refit "as-is" without any clarifications), "Unclear" (for fleets that have unusual rules that might interact with the refit, i.e. special ordnance like Thunderhawks or Eldar Torps), and "Prohibited" (for fleets that cannot use the refit for whatever reason).

Here's what I came up with:
[spoiler]

Mines: Clearly allowed and functional for pretty much everybody. Rogue Traders were unclear a bit because all their cruisers w/ attack craft are from other lists and have restrictions on refits, but I didn't think this applied to mines, which are a general thing. 'Crons and 'Nids don't get these for lack of ordnance / having their own mines (respectively).

Torpedo Bombers: A little more diversity here. BFG:R Orks, AdMech, and DEldar already have them in the books, so that's fine. IN and Chaos don't have them listed but without any special ordnance rules, it seems obvious they should use torp bombers without issue. RT, Inq, 'Crons, and 'Nids don't get torp bombers at all because they don't have their own bombers (2010 FAQ ruling). So the unclear ones are SM, Eldar, and Tau, because they all have weird attack craft, and no explicit additions from BFG:R despite other revised books adding torp bombers.

Special Torpedoes: This one's about the same. After reviewing the books, these do kinda work with everybody except Tau, Necrons, and Tyranids. Eldar/DEldar were a bit odd because they already have their own special torps. The issue here for me is that many of these lists don't seem to make a lot of sense rolling for random bonus torpedoes.
[/spoiler]

So here's my ideas for how to organize the stuff into the books (with some houserules):
[spoiler]

Mines: Just throw in an option in all the lists for up to two cruisers to replace launch bays with mine launchers at +5pts per bay replaced. (Must replace all).

Torpedo Bombers: Add these to the IN and Chaos fleets for +10pts per launch bay. Give the Tau the "Tiger Shark Drone Carrier" to act as a resilient 4+ torp bomber for +15 per launch bay (this keeps them in line with the original armada rules, but doesn't replace mantas). Give the Eldar the "Vampire Hunter" torp bomber for +10 per bay, but only on ships that can take the vampire assault boats (so cheaper than it would be through Armada, but not on every ship). Then finally for space marines I kinda feel they shouldn't really use torpedo bombers as it tramples on their faction flavor of "only thunderhawks", and some of their attack craft restrictions (e.g. VBB) indicate that this might be the intent.

Special Torpedoes: So these are in the most house-rule territory. Some of these are house-rules we already had, others I just came up with. I wanted to add more meaningful choice for fleets where it wouldn't make sense to have the "yeah I accidentally ordered the wrong torps, captain" situation, so here's what I'm looking to change:

• IN, Chaos: Ships can choose to take one of the unlimited torpedoes for +5pts per their torp strength, OR, a ship can pay +50pts to roll a D3 for the "better" one-shot ones. This way, you get a little more control over what you get without it just being all vortex, all the time.
• INQ: A ship with a lord inquisitor can purchase vortex torps for +50 points. After all, who refuses the Inquisition? (Nevertheless, it's expensive and you only get it on one ship).
• SM: Option to choose short-burn or barrage bombs for +5 per torp strength. So, cheap and dirty, but keeping within the idea of SM as a pure "strike force" rather than a dedicated space navy
• Eldar: Option for Fusion (melta) or Distortion (vortex) torps for +50 points on battleships only. Fusion and Distortion get the eldar re-roll to hit rules for their regular torpedoes. I felt like this was a fluffy way to include these, since I tend to see the eldar as never settling for less than the best
• Dark Eldar: I kinda leaned towards giving them no special torps, as they already get leech torpedoes, impalers, and mines. More than that seems like over-doing it.

[/spoiler]

Anyway, I'm sure that it's probably not everybody's cup of tea, but I'm hoping it will work for my group. If there's anything horrendously wrong with the points (exploits I haven't seen or if I just grossly overcosted something), please let me know.

Thanks!

[Bessemer]

That all looks good, mate. Awesome stuff!
 
For availability-

Mines
 Agree.

Torpedo Bombers
Eldar/Tau-Should be allowed, but pay higher cost, as the torps fired use all racial special rules,  though I notice you restricted the availability somewhat for the Eldar, so that would work too. SM- No. TH only. They get enough special stuff already!
 
Special Torpedoes
I like what you've done here with regards to what can take what. Paying +5 per strength soon racks up, making your version more expensive, but then paying for what you want, as opposed to what you might get, should be.


Once this is done, you may want to post these up somewhere. I know there is/was a project to write up a combined rulebook+2010 FAQ, but don't think it ever got finished. And as far as I know, there hasn't been an attempt to write up a unified BFG-R, though all the docs are available separately. 

Once again, great work!

[Xca|iber]

That all looks good, mate. Awesome stuff!
 
Once this is done, you may want to post these up somewhere. I know there is/was a project to write up a combined rulebook+2010 FAQ, but don't think it ever got finished. And as far as I know, there hasn't been an attempt to write up a unified BFG-R, though all the docs are available separately. 

Once again, great work!

Thanks! Once I'm done I'll probably end up posting them here for posterity. I'm about a third done with the individual books but those are on hold while I do the big rulebook. Again, thanks for the advice, it helped me organize my ideas much better.