Dwarf younger holds

[Aldhick]

Hey guys,
  does any of you have an experience playing with or against this list? I don't have one myself, but at the first glance on the rules I cannot get rid of the notion it's way over the line compared to other list, especially the original dwarf list.
   There are so many "advantageous" special rules that have no precedence in other armies (e. g. miners - such tough unit that can deploy behind the lines, has extra A in first round of cc and don't even have usual -1 Ld penalty - and we are talking dwarfs here , "exploding" and cheapest terror causing character, option to have 3 flame cannons  or 2 gyrocopters in 1000pts army, etc.)...
 I'd like to hear some evaluation from anyone who has actual experience.
  Thanx

[Lex]

Well, I guess I can be considered to be "experienced" with that list.

I played it during playtest, as well as during normal and event games.

win-loss ration is app 50% with a lot of draw-loss.

IF you play them with the Slayers as per the published rules, be warned that they are different!!

Miners will NEVER deploy near enough to the enemy to disrupt them straight on, also, no orders AFTER placing them.
Millitia and Minders suffer in armour for the 0cm shooting attack

Allowing you a squadron of Gyrocopters makes you loose the option to have guns and vv. so it will be a tactical descicion

The DragonSlayer is a cmd 6  <-- character, so the dwarf command structure suffers from taking this character and yes,  he CAN explode, but those wounds are negated IF they dont kill the unit.

Try playing and post play(test) comment here ??

 

[kyussinchains]

Bit of threadomancy here but I played against this list a couple of times today and what struck me was the sheer potency of the miners.... popping up on our flank on top of a hill they were a pig to shift (brigade of four units) and swiftly accounted for a huge number of daemon units..... I think they are undercosted/overpowered, or too available? I think 1 unit per 1k points might be more reasonable....

[empireaddict]

I was also playing in the game mentioned above.  4 units of dwarves with 5+ armour, no command penalty, and an extra attack start the game 40cm in front of your army.  Plus they count as defended!  Like dwarves with their own transportable hill!  And all at the incredible bargain price of 110 points.

My recommendation would be to do at least 2 of 4 things with them:

1) Reduce to 1 per 1,000.
2) Reduce armour to 6+
3) Abolish the defended if remain static.
4) Abolish the no distance command penalty.

Or, push the points cost up to at least 150.

[Lex]

IIRC the notion was that they can NOT brigade to get on the table !!

[empireaddict]

"Miners/Surveyors/Explorers. A unit of these never suffers command distance penalties. They may be deployed normally at the start of the game either in the deployment zone or anywhere on the table but at least 40cm away from any enemy unit. Alternatively they can also be kept in reserve and placed during the Dwarven Command phase on a successful order, with the same 40cm distance restriction. When placed from reserve the unit can not receive further orders that turn. As long as the unit stays on its deployment position it is considered to be defended."

No mention of brigading there?

[Geep]

The 'defended if static' would be much better against some races than others. Any decent shooting or magic attack that scores 2 hits will cause driveback (1D6), and then the defended status is gone for good. Against a more combat-oriented force though they will cause a lot of harm.

Ignoring command distance penalties is what seems odd for me- usually a unit like these forces you do place a character in a potentially vulnerable spot if you want to issue them commands reliably, which is a big drawback for Dwarves.

[empireaddict]

@Geep, except that you have to hit the defended target twice on a 5+ to hit (then overcome a 5+ armour save) which means generating more than 12 initial shots to have a reasonable probability of effect?  And the likelihood with shoot-at-closest is that you will only hit one of the four units in the brigade.  And if you're using magic to generate some of those shots you may need to first overcome dwarf anti-magic.

I've got no problem with the miners being in the list, but they do seem far more powerful than any other type of infiltration/ambush units that I've come across in WM.  Hence my suggestion that either their powers need to be reduced or their cost increased.

[Lex]

"Miners/Surveyors/Explorers. A unit of these never suffers command distance penalties. They may be deployed normally at the start of the game either in the deployment zone or anywhere on the table but at least 40cm away from any enemy unit. Alternatively they can also be kept in reserve and placed during the Dwarven Command phase on a successful order, with the same 40cm distance restriction. When placed from reserve the unit can not receive further orders that turn. As long as the unit stays on its deployment position it is considered to be defended."

No mention of brigading there?

Nope, correct, but most definitely that is what WAS intended!! Seeing that I know who wrote this list.....

[empireaddict]

@Lex, so amendment when the lists get updated next?  As well as the brigading issue, I would still recommend additional changes as suggested above.

[Lex]

@Lex, so amendment when the lists get updated next?  As well as the brigading issue, I would still recommend additional changes as suggested above.

Yup....  if someone could start gathering input for that we could look at doing a full revision for the book......
Main problem at this time I do not have enough spare time to do the bulk of the gathering.

When not brigaded they are far less intrusive. Single units are easily overcome, remember that any movement makes them loose their status.

[empireaddict]

I'm happy to gather input from the (hopefully growing) group of players that are now regularly attending the tournaments in Saffron Walden.  There's a sister event kicking off from next weekend and the intention is to hold a tournament every three months.  And the non-core armies are regularly played so we find the glitches such as this one.  Very easy to make list feedback a part of our normal processes.

[Lex]

I'm happy to gather input from the (hopefully growing) group of players that are now regularly attending the tournaments in Saffron Walden.  There's a sister event kicking off from next weekend and the intention is to hold a tournament every three months.  And the non-core armies are regularly played so we find the glitches such as this one.  Very easy to make list feedback a part of our normal processes.

That would help to set up a revision towards the end of 2016.
If other players are willing to gather or submit too, so that we get a wide range of feedback

[empireaddict]

OK.  I'll discuss this with the two other tournament organisers and try to make it part of our pre- and post-tournament process.