Blackstone Fortress Q's

[Seahawk]

I scored one from a shop in Manitowoc for retail cost over the summer, but never really thought how to use one. So:

1. Can I take one in a regular fleet? (as a Defense, it can't normally be taken outside of planetary assault missions, right?)

2. Since the Warmaster must be assigned to the most expensive ship, does that mean he goes on the Fortress? Despite the fact that it cannot go onto special orders and passes all Ld tests anyway, and says it has no crew.

[horizon]

Hey Seahawk,

1. I can't remember exactyl but I recalled somewhere a statement/rule that you can take a defence (thus a BSF) when a planet is present.

2. Heh, Abaddon wasn't on the BSF itself so I will say the warmaster doesn't need to be on it either.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The BSF shouldn't be restricted to defenses in a Chaos list so you can take one in a regular fleet.

[Seahawk]

While I would like that to be true, I can't find any rule to support it. It doesn't appear in any fleet list, so that would mean to me it's not usable. It's just so nebulously placed that it's hard to tell.

And it's still silly that the warmaster would have to be aboard...on the other hand, it can't do special orders but passes all Ld tests, so one could get a cheap fleet boss and consign him to the fortress, with more points for lords.

[Jimmy Zimms]

Andy Chambers discussed using powerful more unique things like the Planet Killer/BSF as the replacement objective in various scenarios. For instance, exterminatus but a fortress instead of planet. For friend play I don't think anyone's going to trip. I don't think they should be in a regular fleet list, however.

[Seahawk]

Here are the relevant rules I've found:

BBB: p.72 and p.76, scenarios. The big problem here is that you only get 10-60 points to spend on defenses for every 500 in the game. That means you'll need to be playing a minimum of 37,500 points each to be assured to take one Blackstone.

BBB: p.140. While it presents some options, they are entirely outside the stock standard rules for the game.

FAQ 2010: Defender in a scenario may spend up to 1/3 of his fleet points on defenses, meaning I'd just need to play a 2250 game.

Now, one key thing here is that the Activated Blackstone Fortresses (ABF) were never used in defense, only on offense. I'm starting to think that maybe, since Hulks, Roks, Warspheres etc are targeted as defenses but treated as ships, the ABF is the same. It's not listed as a Planetary Defense (like the Imperial BF) and is in the chaos fleet list, just not as an option, which frankly is VERY silly.


What makes me think I can take an ABF is the following line in FAQ 2010 P.117: "Only one Activated Blackstone Fortress may be fielded for every FULL 750 points of other ships in a Chaos fleet. No more than three may be taken."

Additionally, there was this (p.119): "A Chaos fleet of any size may include one Chaos Space Hulk. If taken, it must serve as the flagship. It may not be taken in a fleet that has the Planet Killer, an Activated Blackstone Fortress or ships that must be used as flagships such as the Terminus Est."

Consider as well, that the Chaos Space Hulk is not listed as an option in any fleet list but the Berzerker one, though it says it can be taken in any.


Basically, it seems to me that via the FAQ, the ABF is able to be taken in a standard fleet. 

[Bessemer]

@Seahawk: Chaos can take an ABF in Exterminatus missions instead of an Exterminator, wasn't on your list so I thought I'd bring it up. Just saw Jimmy zimm's post, disregard!

Other than that, as you've said, 2010 provides the only other official method of getting an ABF (player agreement aside of course).

The biggest problem for me is critical hits. As I see it-

2-3 Lances damaged- that's the warp cannons offline
4 can't be applied so scale up to...
5 ditto, so 4-5 becomes...
6 reactors damaged- 1/2 shields JOY!
7 fire- yay
8-9 orbit lost, cant really be applied, so we scale up again...
10- shields collapse. Arse...
11-12 as is

so there's a damn good chance of an ABF loosing some or all of it's shields at some point (and extra damage!). In fact that's what normally happens when I field the damn thing anyway. For an Arcane super-weapon they're a little on the flimsy side, even with Arm 6+ and 6 shields.

Plaxor's ABF had Critical hits as +1 dam instead. Not much better, but a much reduced price tag, 500 IIRC.

The only other solution I have is-
Don't roll for critical hits from shooting or bombers/torpedoes.
H&R attacks cause 1 dam on a 6, racial bonuses apply (eg. SM's would cause 1 dam on a 5+)
Boarding actions- roll (boarding value)D6 + 1D6 for all relavent modifiers (i.e racial bonuses, enemy being crippled/ on SO etc) each 6 causes 1 dam. Racial bonuses wouldn't apply to the roll for damage, just the pool you get.

any thoughts on this guys?

[Seahawk]

Doesn't really have much to do with including in a list though, does it. You let me worry about the tactics should I put it to use (thanks for the heads up on it though, good to know).

So do we agree that a Chaos fleet can take an ABF in a regular fleet list? The 2010 doc is the clincher for me.

.

.

[edit] Hmm, what damage chart would it use? It's not a planetary defense, so shouldn't it use the standard chart?

2 would get bumped to 3, 3 to 4, and 4 to 5, none of which have any affect on the ABF's weapons. (remember, it only goes up once, not continuously until something is applicable)
5 to 6 would result in +1 dmg and not being able to turn.
7 is fire.
8 stops it from moving entirely.
9 is applicable, but doesn't affect the ABF's performance.
10 is depressing, as are 11 or 12.


The PD critical chart isn't as bad as you think.

2 and 3 would go to 4, 4 to 5, and none have any affect since the ABF doesn't have lances or weapons batteries.
6 reduces shields, but only temporarily.
7 is bad.
8 goes to 9, and neither cause any ill affect other than 1 dmg.
9 to 10 would be sad, as are 11/12.

So, the standard chart has 4 no-effect results, 5 that cause extra damage, 2 that affect movement, 1 fire, and 1 shield affect.

The PD chart has 3 no effect results, 5 that cause extra damage, 1 fire, and 4 that affect shields.

Which does it use?

[Bessemer]

Doesn't really have much to do with including in a list though, does it.

Yep. 2010 says go.
You could argue that only the Gothic Sector Incursion list and 13th Black Crusade list should be the only ones to get them though, as historically, the ABF's only got deployed during these conflicts...or did they?

[Bessemer]

remember, it only goes up once, not continuously until something is applicable
And if that result can't be applied, is it just disregarded? I guess that's down to interpretation

5 to 6 would result in +1 dmg and not being able to turn. I think you mean can only move forward, as it doesn't really turn as such
7 is fire.
8 stops it from moving entirely. fair enough
9 is applicable, but doesn't affect the ABF's performance. How so? An ABF has no crew let alone a command center, and in game terms it has no Ld rating surely this result can't be applied?
10 is depressing, as are 11 or 12.


The PD critical chart isn't as bad as you think.

2 and 3 would go to 4, 4 to 5, and none have any affect since the ABF doesn't have lances or weapons batteries. I counted Warp cannons as lances simply because, in game terms they are lances,  albeit with a few bells and whistles
6 reduces shields, but only temporarily.
7 is bad.
8 goes to 9, and neither cause any ill affect other than 1 dmg. True
9 to 10 would be sad, as are 11/12.

Which does it use?
I would lean to the PD table, as an ABF has the Defence type on it's profile, even if it isn't strictly a PD as such. As official rulings go, it's probably as close as where going to get.

[Seahawk]

Correct. Even though the next doesn't apply, it doesn't say to continue on until it does.

How so? An ABF has no crew let alone a command center, and in game terms it has no Ld rating surely this result can't be applied?

Just because it has no crew, doesn't mean it has no bridge.

I counted Warp cannons as lances simply because, in game terms they are lances,  albeit with a few bells and whistles

In game terms they are Warp Cannons, not Lances. 

I would lean to the PD table, as an ABF has the Defence type on it's profile, even if it isn't strictly a PD as such. As official rulings go, it's probably as close as where going to get.

Considering that every other "Defense" that is not a Planetary Defense is treated as a ship and not a PD in all respects, I'd disagree. Always good to agree with an opponent (or get a ruling by a TO) before games begin though!

[Seahawk]

I'll go on record as being wrong about critical hits. Was reading the FAQ when I read:

"For example, a second Bridge Smashed critical damage on a given ship instead causes a Shield Collapse, or a Hull Breach if the shields are already collapsed."

So, to rewrite the chart for the ABF:

Standard
2-6 : Engine Room, +1 dmg
7 : Fire
8 : Thrusters Damaged, +1 dmg
9 : Bridge Smashed
10 : Shields Collapse
11 : Hull Breach, +D3 dmg
12 : Bulkhead Collapse, +D6 dmg

or

PD
2-6 : Reactors Damaged, +1 dmg
7 : Fire
8-10 : Shields Collapse
11 : Hull Breach, +D3 dmg
12 : Bulkhead Collapse, +D6 dmg


Also, do Warp Cannons hit Ordnance on a 4+? What happens when the super-mega-death-shot hits Ordnance?

[AndrewChristlieb]

I havent seen anything stating the warpcannon hits ordinance on anything other then a 6. They are described as lance shots that ignore shields/spores/holofields.

I would say that since it uses the nova cannon template that any ordinance caught in the shot are destroyed automatically but thats pretty flimsy, worse case they take the 8(+) hits if the center doesnt touch them and are auto destroyed when the center hole hits.   

[Bessemer]

I read that line but didn't get chance to post!

In retrospect, I'd go with the standard table. I'm still iffy on having Bridge Smashed, but it provides a speed-bump for Shields Collapse.
I could also argue for Warp Cannons to go offline with results 2-5, but if I'm fielding an ABF, I'd want to take the damage and still be able to shoot, so I'll go with that

As for Ordnance, I'd say hit on 6, and auto dead if hit by the SMDS. It's the same with NC's and the Armageddon Gun, so this would be consistent.

[Seahawk]

See, I would disagree, that they hit everything on a 4+. They aren't lances with other rules, they are other weapons with other rules that sometimes work similarly to lances.

However, unlike Bombardment Cannon, it doesn't specifically mention that it hits even ordnance on a 4+.

Ugh. I wish the ABF had been addressed better!