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[unseelied]

Not really an escort fan on the best of days.  Orks would not be ideal for me even though they are best buds now with chaos.  I missed that black library publication.  I've never found ramships to be worth the points.  Basicly its a ship that is designed to die.  Kind of exciting to play with but always a let down.  They always die with out doing enough damage.  As a homebrew rule me and a buddy of mind decided to let them have a free 45 degree turn before they ram and they were still not good. 

[horizon]

Ah, the fickle underestimation of escorts. When will it ever go away?

[unseelied]

If you are coming to adepticon you can bring a metric ton of escorts and show me the secret ways.  

I actually know a guy who runs a SM fleet with three strike cruisers and the rest escorts at 1500pts.  His trick is to give you so many threats at once that you have to give some attention to them all rather than just concentrating on one squad at a time and destroying them.  Its surprisingly difficult to deal with if played well but if he makes a single error he is finished as his escorts cannot survive any undivided attention. 

[afterimagedan]

If you are coming to adepticon you can bring a metric ton of escorts and show me the secret ways.  

I will be surprised if someone brings more escorts than myself.

[horizon]

If you are coming to adepticon you can bring a metric ton of escorts and show me the secret ways.  

I wish I could , but the distance is a bit to much....

I actually know a guy who runs a SM fleet with three strike cruisers and the rest escorts at 1500pts.  His trick is to give you so many threats at once that you have to give some attention to them all rather than just concentrating on one squad at a time and destroying them.  Its surprisingly difficult to deal with if played well but if he makes a single error he is finished as his escorts cannot survive any undivided attention.

So you already have an example of well played fleets with escorts.

[unseelied]

I will be surprised if someone brings more escorts than myself.

You are a nid player though.  Thats a different kettle of fish.  They actually have, in my opinion, bad cruisers so you are left with Hiveships and escorts both which are good.  Before the biomorph removal I used to run two hiveships and all the rest escorts, mainly the vanguards with tenticles.  I'd probabally go with two hives and even more escorts after the FAQ. One of the main reasons I think that they are good is you can bring 12 in a squadron and they are either fast and or cheap.  That terrible Ork clans list has the ablity to have more ships in an escort squadron but they are neither fast nor cheap so I'm not seeing it as an effective list.  Just can't bring the overwhelming numbers like you can with the Nids.

So you already have an example of well played fleets with escorts

Yes but why you would play a fleet that is so difficult to play well when you can just bring a mainly captial ship fleet which is easier to play well and more resilient, remains a mystery.  Maybe some people like more of a challenge?

[horizon]

Because of the fact a combination of cruisers and escorts is the best of all. Secondly, if you look at the background an Imperial sector will have about 75 warships, including escorts and cruisers! With the fleet list rule of 12 cruisers max this means there will be more escorts.

Furthermore, before faq 2010, the best Maine fleet was one barge plus escorts. Corsair Eldar thrive on escorts, nids are good with them. Ork escorts are pretty good with the klanz rules. Tau have excellent escorts. Chaos Infidels are a great asset to a Chaos fleet, Imperials have a good selection of good escorts. And even Craftworld Eldar have good escorts but that is the only fleet I would play without escorts due the fact Shadowhunters are only a last line of defence or for scouting, never in a battlefleet operating away from home.

The tactical added value of escorts is nothing to be sniffed at!

[unseelied]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the escort thing.  I will clarify my previous stance on escorts though.  In fleets with good cruiser choices escorts really aren't nessessary and could actually weaken your fleet.  In fleets without good cruiser choices then you really have no other options but escorts so they are good there. Certain fleets have to take them or have strange list building requirements so also it wouldn't be out of line to take them there either.  There are certain escorts which I consider good but mostly its because of some special unusual feature that most escort do not have.

Chaos, Necrons, In, and Admech I normally run with out any escorts.  If I do its just for looks or to purposely weaken my list to play against less skilled players.  I do like the look of a fleet with a battleship, cruisers and some escorts and sometimes I decide to sacrifice a little power for purely asthetic reasons.   

Nids and Eldar don't have good cruiser options and are really forced down the escort route.  Their escorts are also pretty high quality or inexpensive.   Holofields also give the escorts a huge boost as did biomorphs and extra large squadrons which made them a special case as far as escorts go.

Almost all ork ships are pretty bad.  I am not sure the new clan rules make them any better.  I can bring more bad ships.  The lack of turrets and the 4+ armor makes them just too fragile for the cost.  Maybe it could work but the general fleet building mechanic is really restrictive so I am staying away from that list.  In the original list their main cruisers are bad and their escorts are as well so it almost doesn't matter which you bring.

Tau escorts are usable.  Because of the strange fleet building restrictions( 1 hero= 1 explorer) you have to take escorts at 1500 to fill out the points.  Orcas would be good if you didn't have to squadron their motherships to make a squadron of six ships.  Defenders can't turn well but are better than that crappy light cruiser and  you have to take something.  If I could take a hero instead of tau escorts I would in a heartbeat but the list restricts me.  Xenos escorts, if you are running allies with your tau, are a very good escort.  One of the few I consider as good as a capital ship.  Once again though, they can get two shields which makes them a special snowflake.

Dark eldar have to take escorts, their cruisers are fairly bad so escorts are the best they can do and even then they are a weak fleet except for one or two tricks they rely too heavily on. 

CWE escorts are just so bad compared to normal eldar escorts it just seems like robbery. 

Space Marines are the one fleet that a reasonable arguement can be made for escorts.  Their crusier option, the strike cruiser, is fragile at six hits and doesn't really put out a lot of fire power for its cost.  They are better now with the 2010 FAQ  in that they can get an extra shield or upgrade to a larger bombardment cannon.  Four hunters or one strike cruiser is a really good comparison and although I still think the capital ships have an edge its so minimal as to almost not matter.  Having said all that, I don't think the SM is a top tier fleet by any means.  The only fleet I can think of in which escorts are equal to their capital ship choices is second rate at best.   

It is a shame you don't live closer to adepticon to show me the escort magic.  I really would like to see it.  The escort guy around here is the best I've seen using them but he has never beaten me.  He starts out strong but eventually he gets ground down.  His escorts just don't have the legs to carry on in any extended engagement and I think thats a fatal flaw.  I'd love to be proved wrong about it.  Maybe someone else will bring an escort heavy fleet (thats not nids or eldar) to adepticon. 

[afterimagedan]

What if I take no biomorphs on escorts?

[horizon]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the escort thing. 

Heh heh.

I will clarify my previous stance on escorts though.  In fleets with good cruiser choices escorts really aren't nessessary and could actually weaken your fleet.  In fleets without good cruiser choices then you really have no other options but escorts so they are good there. Certain fleets have to take them or have strange list building requirements so also it wouldn't be out of line to take them there either.  There are certain escorts which I consider good but mostly its because of some special unusual feature that most escort do not have.

'kay.

Chaos, Necrons, In, and Admech I normally run with out any escorts.  If I do its just for looks or to purposely weaken my list to play against less skilled players.  I do like the look of a fleet with a battleship, cruisers and some escorts and sometimes I decide to sacrifice a little power for purely asthetic reasons.   

My usual Chaos (Renegade) fleet runs 9 escorts, six Infidels and three Iconoclasts, the last ones have gained a deadly reputation in the battle when they crippled an Emperor Battleship in one salvo (Emperor was full health, with 3 shields down).

With the Necrons, I have no fleet for them yet, however I think the Shroud is poor ship and would use escorts instead.
My AdMech fleet also runs 9 escorts (Hunters & Gladii).

Nids and Eldar don't have good cruiser options and are really forced down the escort route.  Their escorts are also pretty high quality or inexpensive.   Holofields also give the escorts a huge boost as did biomorphs and extra large squadrons which made them a special case as far as escorts go.

While Corsair are escort king, the fleet does make good use of the incidental Eclipse and or Aurora, while the Void Stalker is a beast that always flies.

Almost all ork ships are pretty bad.  I am not sure the new clan rules make them any better.  I can bring more bad ships.  The lack of turrets and the 4+ armor makes them just too fragile for the cost.  Maybe it could work but the general fleet building mechanic is really restrictive so I am staying away from that list.  In the original list their main cruisers are bad and their escorts are as well so it almost doesn't matter which you bring.

From experience the all out terror list is pretty strong (Deadshane won Adepticon with Orks) and the clanz list is pretty good with its big squadrons, which means better leadership, which means a frig load of torpedoes.... urgh...

Tau escorts are usable.  Because of the strange fleet building restrictions( 1 hero= 1 explorer) you have to take escorts at 1500 to fill out the points.  Orcas would be good if you didn't have to squadron their motherships to make a squadron of six ships.  Defenders can't turn well but are better than that crappy light cruiser and  you have to take something.  If I could take a hero instead of tau escorts I would in a heartbeat but the list restricts me.  Xenos escorts, if you are running allies with your tau, are a very good escort.  One of the few I consider as good as a capital ship.  Once again though, they can get two shields which makes them a special snowflake.

Funny, I usually run my escort squadrons in numbers of three, never six, sometimes five. I go for more targets for the enemy the choose between.

Dark eldar have to take escorts, their cruisers are fairly bad so escorts are the best they can do and even then they are a weak fleet except for one or two tricks they rely too heavily on. 

Again, an Adepticon winner. Buy, yes, a one-trick pony fleet.

CWE escorts are just so bad compared to normal eldar escorts it just seems like robbery. 

Disagree. These are fast and good ordnance killah's.

Space Marines are the one fleet that a reasonable arguement can be made for escorts.  Their crusier option, the strike cruiser, is fragile at six hits and doesn't really put out a lot of fire power for its cost.  They are better now with the 2010 FAQ  in that they can get an extra shield or upgrade to a larger bombardment cannon.  Four hunters or one strike cruiser is a really good comparison and although I still think the capital ships have an edge its so minimal as to almost not matter.  Having said all that, I don't think the SM is a top tier fleet by any means.  The only fleet I can think of in which escorts are equal to their capital ship choices is second rate at best.   

' kay.

It is a shame you don't live closer to adepticon to show me the escort magic.  I really would like to see it.  The escort guy around here is the best I've seen using them but he has never beaten me.  He starts out strong but eventually he gets ground down.  His escorts just don't have the legs to carry on in any extended engagement and I think thats a fatal flaw.  I'd love to be proved wrong about it.  Maybe someone else will bring an escort heavy fleet (thats not nids or eldar) to adepticon.

Yeah, pity it is. I wish I could play against you people, alas, it is a big ocean between.

[Seahawk]

Having said all that, I don't think the SM is a top tier fleet by any means.

  So that's why it's easy to win with them.

I'll be bringing escorts, so we'll see how it goes!

[afterimagedan]

In scenarios, escorts can also be great transport chasers and transport escorts.

[afterimagedan]

Indefinitely think SMs are top tier. Super excellent fleet.

[horizon]

Pre faq 2010 the marine fleet was quite poor, after the faq they  Became better.

[unseelied]

I'll be bringing escorts, so we'll see how it goes!

I am sticking by my statement that SM aren't a top tier fleet but I am glad someone is up to the challenge of trying to open my eyes to the goodness of escorts.  As you say we will see how it goes.

In scenarios, escorts can also be great transport chasers and transport escorts.

True but capital ships can fulfill the same role.  Not as fast as an escort but normally they have longer ranged guns.  Its kind of a wash in the chasing area but they can begin defending earlier with better range and stick it out a lot longer. 

What if I take no biomorphs on escorts?

Most of my experience with the Nids has been with biomorphs so I am unsure exactly how taking no biomorphs on escorts is going to impact the fleet.  They still have the benefit of enormous squadrons and cheap ships on their side.  With biomorphs they could have all that and two spores as well so I think that they are taking a hit overall.  Not sure just how large of a hit though.  Greater numbers could offset their new fragility.  I think the loss of biomorphs is going to impact the hiveships greatly but it will still impact on the escorts to some degree.
 

With the Necrons, I have no fleet for them yet, however I think the Shroud is poor ship and would use escorts instead.

  I agree the shroud is a poor ship but I think its slightly better than the 3-4 escorts you could get instead.  Its a toss up really but the Ld bonus the shroud gives to the fleet takes it over the top for me.  The 6+ natural save of Necron escorts makes them have to stay braced all game which makes them useless.  At least the shroud gives you a fleet wide bonus while being otherwise useless.

From experience the all out terror list is pretty strong (Deadshane won Adepticon with Orks) and the clanz list is pretty good with its big squadrons, which means better leadership, which means a frig load of torpedoes.... urgh...

The Terror list was strong during that brief time fighta-bombas had D3+3 as their attacks.  Now not so much.  10 ravagers could put out an enormous number of torpedos.  I doubt that there would be ten ships left by the time they reached optimal firing range and often they'd crap out and roll 1 torp each for a mighty 10 torpedos.  There might be some hidden magic in the clans list but  I'm just not seeing it.  They are just too fragile, expensive and difficult to use.  Admittedly  have only played one game with the new clanz list so I am Mathhammering it but I am just not seeing it as a powerful list.  Write up a good list and post it up.  I will try it out and report back.

Funny, I usually run my escort squadrons in numbers of three, never six, sometimes five. I go for more targets for the enemy the choose between

I normally go for as large as possible.  Its too easy to kill just three ships in one go and give up full points.  Killing six at once is a lot harder making the chance of disengaging one much more likely. 

Disagree. These are fast and good ordnance killah's.

With holofields you really don't need ordance killers unless you are facing a fleet with an outrageous and unusual numbers of launch bays.  I'm not seeing a place for these.  I'd just bring another light cruiser instead.