Adepticon Announcement

[unseelied]

The only thing that sticks out for me are the Mechanicus not being able to work with Chaos.  Unless I am mistaken there is a whole Dark Mechanicus that works with chaos just like the normal mechanicus works with the Imperium.  Read Dark Mechanicus or that very cool series about the Night lords.  There is a great mechanicus guy in that night lords series.

If the Imperial Mechanicus would have any huge issues it would be with the Necrons.  Alien Tech is considered to be an abomination and so Necrons are a race made completely out of of abomination.  Because of the Dark Mechanicus I'd say mechanicus should be at least yellow with chaos.  Only because of the Dark Mechanicus would I say that the Mechanicus would work with Necrons at all. 

[Islacrusez]

Are the Dark Mechanicus represented in the fleet list? If not, do they actually have the same ships and same tech in the fluff?

[unseelied]

The DM are not represented in any fleet list.  Their main change from the regular M as far as I know is that they a pretty much willing to go to any extreme for new tech rather than just sticking with tried and true STC.  This would include putting daemons inside machines and such.  I am not sure if that would really effect their ships enough to make any difference in game.  Ships are vast and only the most extreme changes are going to effect one.  I am kinda thinking it would be like the different SM chapters to some extent where there differences in the scale of BFG are not enough to make any changes to the ships each chapter fields. 

On the other hand an arguement could be made in the other direction,  that sticking daemons in stuff would give them different powers.  However, there isn't, as far as I know, any void war related fluff that pertains to DM so there is no real way to tell.  They exist and make stuff for the forces of Chaos.  Half the mechanicus left to join chaos in the heresy.  They probabally took their ships with them.  Thats what we know.

Other factions not represented in the BFG rules are represented using counts as fleets.  Gene stealer cults for instance in this adepticon chart.  The main one of interest here would be a renegade Imperial fleet.   A Imperial Navy fleet that has fallen from the emperors light can ally with chaos in the adepticon list but just uses their normal stats and such.  I think that is the STC for a DM fleet.  Just let them ally with chaos.  They could be yellow since no one really trusts chaos but they could be green as well since they build and fix everything chaos owns.  Got to be fairly trusted for that. 

If it was for a one-off tourney then skipping the DM would be fine but I think that if you are planning on making some kind of standard tourney template( STT ) for universal use then I think that banning them from being allies with chaos makes no sense.  Its quirky, strange and letting them ally with chaos doesn't really get them any advantages they didn't already have since they can already ally with IN who for the most part use almost the same ships. 

These are the questions we have to ask.  Why can't the Dark Mechanicus ally with Chaos?  Why can't the Dark Mechanicus be represented using he normal Mechanicus list?

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Admech list represents the newest most up to date of the Imperiums ships. I don't think thats really a great fleet to represent the DM with. Actually I would probably go with a standard Chaos list with maybe a PK leading it.

[Islacrusez]

If you want them to be allied, you'll have to stop calling them Adeptus Mechanicus in the listing >.>

On a similar note, especially based on your chaos=IN and dmech=admech, why bother with a chaos list at all? Just listing them as "human fleet" and allowing both lists to be used combined would be a better representation of the renegade side of things, no? It would be, actually, but you'd lose a lot of the point.

In a way that is a bit different from allowing admech to be dmech, as allowing it adds flavour rather than removes it... Humm. Personally I think that admech!=dmech, and they should get their own list, or at least their own gifts.

Besides, if you really want the admech to be dmech in this one-off set of rules, you can present your case of fluff to the emperor and he'll say yay or nay based on how convincing you are. Agreed that it could be an issue if the ruleset were to be presented as a standard.

[RaptorEvolved]

Hi there Captains, we've made a couple of changes based on suggestions. bnelow review before we start finalizing everything if you please

[Seahawk]

Did anything change? 

AM should be Allies of Convenience with Rogue Traders.

Chaos should NEVER be able to take Eldar as Battle Brothers. Ever. Chaos should be able to take Dark Eldar as Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies.

Eldar should not be able to take Chaos as allies in any way whatsoever, and should be able to take Inquisition, Imperial Navy, Tau, and Space Marines as Allies of Convenience, or possibly Desperate Allies.

Inquisition should be able to take Eldar as Desperate Allies.

Imperial Navy should be able to take Tau as Allies of Convenience.

Necrons should not be able to take AM and Chaos as Battle Brothers (should be Allies of Convenience for AM, and Desperate or never for Chaos).

Orks should not be able to take Space Marines as allies at all, and not Imperial Navy as BB (only Desperate). Orks should be able to take both Eldars and Necrons as Desperate Allies.

Rogue Traders should not be able to take everything as Battle Brothers. Allies of Convenience, yes.

Space Marines should be able to take Imperial Navy as Battle Brothers, and Tau and Eldar as Allies of Convenience.

Tau should be able to take Dark Eldar as Desperate Allies; Space Marines and Imperial Navy as Allies of Convenience, and Eldar as Battle Brothers.

Tyranids should be able to take Chaos, Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Imperial Navy as Desperate Allies.


Everything should be able to take themselves as Sector Allies. That was the point of introducing the concept, really.

[horizon]

Did anything change? 

AM should be Allies of Convenience with Rogue Traders.

Chaos should NEVER be able to take Eldar as Battle Brothers. Ever. Chaos should be able to take Dark Eldar as Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies.

Eldar should not be able to take Chaos as allies in any way whatsoever, and should be able to take Inquisition, Imperial Navy, Tau, and Space Marines as Allies of Convenience, or possibly Desperate Allies.

Inquisition should be able to take Eldar as Desperate Allies.

Imperial Navy should be able to take Tau as Allies of Convenience.

Necrons should not be able to take AM and Chaos as Battle Brothers (should be Allies of Convenience for AM, and Desperate or never for Chaos).

Orks should not be able to take Space Marines as allies at all, and not Imperial Navy as BB (only Desperate). Orks should be able to take both Eldars and Necrons as Desperate Allies.

Rogue Traders should not be able to take everything as Battle Brothers. Allies of Convenience, yes.

Space Marines should be able to take Imperial Navy as Battle Brothers, and Tau and Eldar as Allies of Convenience.

Tau should be able to take Dark Eldar as Desperate Allies; Space Marines and Imperial Navy as Allies of Convenience, and Eldar as Battle Brothers.

Tyranids should be able to take Chaos, Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Imperial Navy as Desperate Allies.


Everything should be able to take themselves as Sector Allies. That was the point of introducing the concept, really.

This.


Although, somehow I feel about AdMech:
Dark Mechanicus: Chaos may use AdMech upgrades on Chaos vessels (aka using AdMech rules as allies)?
Necron: with the Machine God and all on Mars, perhaps necrons + admech (traitors) to be middle of the road?

[Islacrusez]

Agreed on most points, except that Necrons need some green, so if you take away the two it has, what alternative do you offer? Doubly agreed on RT getting all allies of convenience rather than all BB. Maybe AM should get RT as desperate allies (I don't imagine the AM being too keen on RT activities especially when it comes to trading tech).

[Seahawk]

Do Necrons really need green allies though? Like I said before, not all races have friends.

Maybe rogue traders can be taken as green. The rest should be yellow or worse, and since chaos/warp is the Necrons ancient enemy, Chaos should not be BB.

[unseelied]

The Admech list represents the newest most up to date of the Imperiums ships. I don't think thats really a great fleet to represent the DM with. Actually I would probably go with a standard Chaos list with maybe a PK leading it.

I think that would be a very cool fleet.  I dig on your vision of ancient ships being held together with sorcery.  It makes a cool idea and visual.  However, because there is a lack of any real background fluff on what DM fleets are like its just your vision of it and no more correct than mine. 
I am seeing the DM as radicals pushing the boundaries.  The various tech upgrades could be Xenos tech, could be daemonic tech or they could even just be good old fashioned inovation.  Why couldn't they have new ships? Why couldn't they build new ships with new designs as they are no longer constrained to the dogma of the STC? Planets and Fleets are falling to chaos all the time and heading out to the eye of terror so they would have examples of new ships. 
Another thing to think about is every explorator fleet ever mentioned is going to some god awful haunted place that no one goes to for a reason, looking for tech.   Its like watching a horror movie.  "Don't go into the basement Admech guys!".   They always do and thats where the chaos is lurking.  I'd say that explorator fleets getting their hands dirty in evil places far away from the Imperium are more at risk to be corrupted by chaos and turn to the dark side than any other imperial group.  People are fine with the idea of an imperial fleet turning their coats and joining chaos.  People are fine with the idea of entire space marine chapters turning their coats and joining chaos.  People are saying its impossible for an explorator fleet to fall to chaos.  It makes no sense.

[unseelied]

On a similar note, especially based on your chaos=IN and dmech=admech, why bother with a chaos list at all? Just listing them as "human fleet" and allowing both lists to be used combined would be a better representation of the renegade side of things, no? It would be, actually, but you'd lose a lot of the point.

Traitor IN is just regular IN rules wise.  They only join chaos in a fluff sense.  Yet they still get to join up with chaos fleet using the chart.  I like your formula idea but its not chaos=IN its  IN=Renegade IN, ADmech=DM.  I basicly can just paint my ships evilly or nurgle them up and I gain something.  How is that fair to someone with a DM fleet?  Why do DM players have to prostrate themselves before the emperor to beg for something that plainly they should already have?  If you look at the chart there are only two black squares that aren't nids.  How does that make any sense?  Is there fluff I don't know about?  Could someone please explain it to me?  Also why Dark Eldar? 

If this was a one-off chart then who cares?  I'm most likely the only person seeing this chart that actually has a Dark Mechanicus fleet and I'm not bringing them to Adepticon either as main or allies.    Its for the children and the future.   If you are going to have a universal chart for the ages you shouldn't have nonsense on it for one.  For two, the point of the chart is its supposed to add spice.  Randomly just limiting the poor DM for no reason just goes against the whole point of the chart. 

The power gamer in me wants to try out that eldar move by taking chao main with eldar allies no matter how much the fluff gods cry.  I will collect their tears in a jar and refresh myself between games with it.   
The fluff guy in me is thinking that you should all just shoot for a one-off chart since you don't seem to read the same fluff as everyone else.  Just rule with an iron fist and get it over with but don't expect everyone in the universe to accept the quirky chart.   

[lordgoober]

I can see that.  I think we're going to make one last tweak to our chart for Adepticon and call it a wrap there and then in another thread we can start working on a universal allies chart for the future.

[Islacrusez]

 
I am seeing the DM as radicals pushing the boundaries.  The various tech upgrades could be Xenos tech, could be daemonic tech or they could even just be good old fashioned inovation.  Why couldn't they have new ships? Why couldn't they build new ships with new designs as they are no longer constrained to the dogma of the STC?

This is precisely why they cannot have AdMech ships.

People are fine with the idea of an imperial fleet turning their coats and joining chaos.  People are fine with the idea of entire space marine chapters turning their coats and joining chaos.  People are saying its impossible for an explorator fleet to fall to chaos.  It makes no sense.

Imperial Navy are basically largely press-ganged ships, people who have been forced to go on these godforsaken ships and have a gun to their head to make sure they stay there. The officers might have a bit more discipline, being the ones doing the gun-holding and generally more loyal, but just like the rest of your average humans they can be turned.

Space Marines are a different story, that's canon and there's a lot of things we disagree with in there that we don't get to complain about.

AdMech? Another story altogether. AdMech don't "just turn", just like Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights don't just turn. The DM won't have access to the ships that the AM have, because they don't just turn up on their doorstep with a mutineer crew every few years, and because if they build or change something they get to break all the rules. To rephrase your own question, why in the world would DM end up with the heavily constrained ship designs of the AM when they don't have to follow any of the same rules?

How is that fair to someone with a DM fleet?  Why do DM players have to prostrate themselves before the emperor to beg for something that plainly they should already have?

Because they don't have a fleet list? Because there are no rules that say you can have DM? Would it be ok to field Imperial Guard in a tournament but insist to be allowed to use the Chaos allies list because my entire army has turned to Chaos?

If you want to play DM, I think they should be represented properly, rather than just saying any AM can automatically be BB with Chaos.

[Seahawk]

we can start working on a universal allies chart for the future.

That's what my own chart, and all the revisions I suggested for this one, are already for. A universal chart that makes sense fluffily while not being OTT rulesy. I really, really don't understand the original versions...