Adepticon Announcement

[unseelied]

It is a little strange that the community has embraced the FAQ even though it isn't officially official.  I guess the fact that they came from the "high admiralty" made it more legitimate in some way.  In comparison BFG-R is just written by some guys.  Technically the high admiralty are just some guys too but for whatever reason it makes a difference.  I'm not really sure how one became a member of the high admiralty but in my mind they are associated with the game from its earliest beginings and they as a group were trusted with the various FAQs and such.  Even if they really aren't they just seem more knowlegable and legitimate.  BFG-R guys are just guys on the internet whos knowledge and skill are unknown quantities.

Does the FAQ have issues? Sure.  I too think the stacky rules are stupid.  I'm not sure what you are talking about with the blast markers rules. The Eldar are a hard matchup for some fleets and sometimes annoying to play against but I've never had a problem with them.   Nids got shafted with not being able to use their Biomorphs with out permission.  That whole ork clans list needs to go in the trash.   

I can go on but despite some small problems the game is surprisingly balanced for such an aged game and for the most part works well without further revision.  Thats the key.  If the game was seriously broken then the fan rules would have a chance to be widely accepted but they won't be because they aren't.  As it stands I have no doubt I will be able to go to adepticon and have three games of BFG with total strangers and everything will run smooth using just official rules plus FAQ. 

[horizon]

Yeah, the FAQ has been made by the HA, thus it got a more accepted character.

The current HA (well, if they do something for BFG) are Bob, Ray and Nate. They have been appointed by GW (Jervis I assume) to be caretakers of BFG, this happened shortly after Armada was released. FAQ 1.5 was their first main work (the old FAQ).
The old HA: Andy Chambers, Jervis and Matt O'Keefe if I recall correctly.


The game functions, yes, true. And in the offcial rules there is one broken aspect and that is being called Eldar. The rules are just bad (and can be exploited by players, luckily BFG players tend to be quite cool).

[unseelied]

I've never had a problem with the eldar.  Fighting them sometimes can be very frustrating but I've never felt that I didn't have a fair chance at winning.  If I had to pick a broken aspect, or maybe just a mechanic that is unfun, I'd go for the 2+ save on the Necron fleet.  You can set up the perfect attack and if he doesn't roll any ones its all for nothing.  On the other hand you can play like a child and if he rolls lots of ones he'd most likely lose.  I guess everyone's milage will vary.  I think that a lot of a person view as to the flaws of the game will come down which fleets you normally play against and how good those people are at the game.

[afterimagedan]

I think that a lot of a person view as to the flaws of the game will come down which fleets you normally play against and how good those people are at the game.

I think that is quite unfair. That assumes people just don't like being beaten by an opponent who happens to be better than them, so they want to debuff their fleet's list. So the flaws you pointed out in the 2010 rules are really just from you not liking a fleet you play against regularly from an opponent who is better than you at the game?

[horizon]

I've never had a problem with the eldar.  Fighting them sometimes can be very frustrating but I've never felt that I didn't have a fair chance at winning.  If I had to pick a broken aspect, or maybe just a mechanic that is unfun, I'd go for the 2+ save on the Necron fleet.  You can set up the perfect attack and if he doesn't roll any ones its all for nothing.  On the other hand you can play like a child and if he rolls lots of ones he'd most likely lose.  I guess everyone's milage will vary.  I think that a lot of a person view as to the flaws of the game will come down which fleets you normally play against and how good those people are at the game.

Okay,
Eldar official rules.

1] Move, Attack, Disengage
surprise attack or similar. 750 vs 1500pts

Turn 1 movement: Eldar on board
Turn 1 shooting: Eldar destroy ship(s)
Turn 1 ordnance phase: Eldar mop up if shooting wasn't succesfull or destroy more.
Turn 1 end of ordnance phase: Eldar move fleet of table.

Opponent nets 75vps, Eldar net destroyed vessels (> 150).

A daft Eldar win with no play for opponent. See, no cool player would do that but Eldar rules make it possible.


2] The Volandum Manouevre
Lock on with Hemlocks (boom boom Pulsars!)  (lock on = cannot turn in movement + ordnance phase)
Fire torpedoes (str2) at Hemlock squadron.
Hemlocks Brace for impact!
BFI replaces Lock On. Hemlocks may turn and move at end of ordnance phase.

Totally gittish but rules allow it.

3] Necrons are blamed for Eldar losses.
Wrong, Eldar loose because of Eldar rules.

4] Fluff
Wraithbone is stronger then 4+.
The most advanced race has no protection against space debris. Being arrogant is one thing, being a stupid race another.
The most advanced race has almost no protection vs the most common enemy weapon (weapon batteries). 1 dice from a mon-keigh ship can kill thousands of a dying race @30.000 km away. 1 dice on a 50% chance.
Again, a dying race may be arrogant, but stupid?

The problem with Eldar rules is not that they are too strong or to weak (funny enough they are too weak and too strong combined!) but that they are broken/badly written.

[unseelied]

think that is quite unfair. That assumes people just don't like being beaten by an opponent who happens to be better than them, so they want to debuff their fleet's list. So the flaws you pointed out in the 2010 rules are really just from you not liking a fleet you play against regularly from an opponent who is better than you at the game?

I think we are all a product of our environment.  For instance I think the ork clans list is crap and believe its self evident, however, I remember a long ago post someone was claiming it was broken powerful.  I can't see it but maybe the guys experience make it seem that way to him.  Maybe he's actually right and there is some combo I am not seeing.  I'm not saying people are crying about being beaten but what I am saying is that people will decide using their various experiences what they believe to be fair and what they believe to be overpowered.  This will be for the most part different for everyone.  Afteriamagedan I guess you must play nids since your icon seems niddy.  I believe that with their biomorphs Nids are one of the top three fleets in power.  Without them they drop to the lower middle of the pack.  Apparently the HA thought that the biomorphs were overpowered and disallowed them unless everyone agrees.  So what I am saying is I don't think people are intentionally trying to debuff their buddy's fleet what I am saying is that due to their various experiences people are trying to "balance" percieved flaws and thats going to be shades of grey and different for every person.

Horizon, that eldar trick #1 is very sneaky.  I've never come across it as I mostly play fleet engagements.  My experiences color my view.  If we are going to talk about scenerios the Eldar would be at a disadvantage in a planetary assault or exterminatus for instance.  Maybe not an auto-loss like this scenerio but the eldar would be hard pressed to get one of their cruisers to a heavily defended planet.  In a campaign situation it would mostly balance out I think.  A lot of races have advantages or disadvantages while playing scenerios.  Try stopping Necrons from virus bombing your world.
 
Number 2 does not trouble me.  If an eldar player can set up this attack and ensure a torpedo hits him while locking on and being in the right place to kill something, he deserves to scoot away.  This isn't something you can just pull out  of a hat and do.  The other guy will be able to see this coming and take action to prevent it or suffer as he should.

Number 3.  I'm kinda leaning towards Necrons being more broken honestly.  With reactionless drives they pretty much trump the MsM system which is how the eldar survive.  Is it Msm or is it Reactionless drives thats the badly written rule?  Maybe both?

Number 4.  I do find that strange.  Often the fluff and the rules don't have a lot in common.  Space marine boarding should be far more more out of control if you read the fluff.  Why do the craftworlds not have a voidstalker or build decent escorts?  Why are the SM in 40K now friends with Zenos scum?  The fluff tends to change to fit the game rather than the other way around. 

[afterimagedan]

Believe me, I know that fully allowed biomorphs do break the nid list and make them too powerful. Adepticon had to put a rule in place to make up for it and I believe it works out well. No biomorphs drops the nids down too much. So the decision was made. Just claiming that people are balancing fleets based on perceived flaws applies to the HA and the designers from the beginning as well. I know you haven't been on these boards for all that long but the BFG:R effort has been a whole bunch of work over years and I believe people are not just advocating for their own preferred fleet to be the best. Yes, it may be shades of grey for every person, but having the group debate and challenge and calculate and vote is the best shot at balance we have at this point.

[unseelied]

I actually don't believe the nids were overpowered fully biomorphed, I said that they were powerful.  I think that they were fine just the way they were. I agree that without biomorphs they are very much weaker.   

What is the adepticon rule for Nid biomorphs by the way?  Let in some or are some combos not allowed?
 
It all depends on what people and how many are on the committee.  Sure if you had 1000 people anyones quirks would disappear under all the average peoples views but you don't have that many so anyone with strong opinions will unduly influence any outcome whether they know what they are talking about or not.
I'm not following closely so I am unsure exactly how many people are working on any one fleet list but it seems from casual viewing to be like max five per list with maybe some lurkers.  One guy with strange views will wack out your balance. 

The HA is working with their own shades of grey, that is true.  However, those people are associated with the people who designed the game.  Maybe they learned the game from andy chambers.  Played with the original designers.  Their greys may be less grey than most.  Certainly less grey than "anybody on the internet who wants to help".  Still I think they should not have nerfed the poor nids. 

I was on the original specialist games boards back in the day. I have missed the BFG-R its true but I was around for the MMS eldar.  (I was against it)  I've been playing BFG regularly since about 2000.  I intend to attend the adepticon tourney this year and win Maybe I will see you there.

[lordgoober]

the rule that we have in place is that you can have your three different types but you can apply each biomorph only once.

We had a couple years in a row where the 14/6 hive ships were steamrolling everything in sight.

[horizon]

Unseelieed,
it is under msm Eldar rules that Eldar tend to dominate a fleet scenario like escalating engagement. And I do think you need to factor in all kind of scenarios. Small or Big.
And a well played Eldar fleet will still deliver in planetary assault or exterminatus.
True, Necrons will excel at that last one a lot.

And I still do think fluff needs to be balance with rules, otherwise we can ditch all and everything background wise (exaggarating here). If rules cannot be translated like the Marines you describe, then, yes, fluff should be adapted in a small way. Marines working with xenos is a minor change all things regarded because a lot of fan writers made such stories before.

And, yeah, MMS had opponents. And first time players I will always tell to use official rules first and only pick MMS if they do not like the official rules.
I do have a mail from Bob Henderson (HA) though that if they had ever gotten the option to make a real BFG 2.0 Eldar MMS would be the Eldar rules they picked.
But that will never ever happen now, lol.

So we pick the rules we like most with our friends when playing and adapt to the rules when someone else is hosting a tournament (because adapeticon also adds/quirks rules). Right?

[lordgoober]

now.  if someone can come up with a REALLY good fluff/background for why a particular combination they want to use should have a different ally rating than we have given them,  we will probably take a look at that on a case by case basis.

[unseelied]

Adapting to the rules is what happens with any GW games system anywhere.  For instance 40k around here some people allow forgeworld, some don't some are rolling with the new suppliments, some have painting scores etc.  All this is fine as long as its clear from the beginning what is allowed.  People can make an educated choice then to attend or not to attend depending upon what they like or don't like. 

There is a lot less of that in BFG as official rules plus FAQ seems to be more standard and there aren't as many choices as to tourneys to attend but still every tourney is going to have its quirks.  This is all fine and good as long as the quirks are listed before hand so everybody knows what they are getting into and can decide if they want to attend or not.  A little quirkiness can add some spice.  Too much and you're not playing the same game. 

Over all I think having fewer quirks is better.  Look at the condition of 40k now.  Its fractured.  Too many quirks.  BFG doesn't have enough players to work fractured.  Right now we use official rule plus FAQ (plus small quirks) for every tournament I can think of.  Playing what you want to, how you want to at home with your friends is everyones right.  You can play dressed up as your favorite BFG character if you want.  I would if I had a costume.     If you want to play against strangers in a tournament setting, however, I think the more standard you can get the better and smoother things will go.  No one wants to fly all the way to adepticon and find out the BFG isn't real BFG but fanBFG.

The fluff really does drive the hobby.  GW has a lot of problems with their business methods, pricing etc but their setting and background is what really pulls us in and holds us here year after year.  Problem is there is so much fluff and it keeps changing.  For every story you can name where the SM work hand in hand with the Xenos there are others where they recite the litanys of hate against them and slaughter them.  I don't like the SM cohabitating with Xenos and you don't like eggshell wraithbone.  Nothing to be done about it. 

That is interesting about the HA thinking about using MMS.  If they had I would have become "official" and everyone would be playing it.  As you say it will never happen now. 

[Seahawk]

Personally, I don't see what's all so wrong about just porting the 40k ally chart into BFG, as that's the simplest way to do it, as well as fit most fluff best (I think). Here's my take on it:



The extra perk? If people want to use a double fleet, it must be escorts only, which pushes the idea of a "required number of escorts". Something I nominally disagree with naturally, but there ya go.

[RaptorEvolved]

As SeaHawk stated we are incorporatijng the 40k Allies matrix with a concentration on Leadership and the way it works with allies as follows

ALLIES MATRIX CHANGES

GREEN=Trusted: Leadership as is normal for the allied fleet. Regular leadership + the special ability.
YELLOW=Necessity: Regular leadership
ORANGE=Distrusted: Will have a die roll -1 of leadership so will roll 1-5 on the chart.
RED=Hostile: Will have the 1-5 roll on the chart and then -1 on their leadership beyond that AND they will be subject

to the Reserve Fleets rules as if you were fighting against Chaos in the rules in the Armada Book on page 29 of the dead tree copy.

Restrictions & Notes:

clarification that will be made with respect to Tau working with Chaos and vice versa.  The Chaos contingent may NOT contain a Daemonship if you wish to have them allied with Tau.
Auxiliary Flotilla cannot be from a secondary fleet list of the same race (IE different sector of Imperial Navy allying together. But Imperial Navy could have an Adeptus Mechanicus auxiliary)
Dark Eldar ships in the Auxiliary Flotilla are not allowed to have Mimic Engines.
Tyranid Ships are not allowed to be part of an Auxiliary Flotilla.
However Tyranid fleets may have an Auxiliary Flotilla as those ships would be controlled by a Genestealer Cult i.e Tranid hive mind shennanigans.
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitior Lord allows for Admech, Inquisition, Imperials, Rogue Trader and Space Marines as Green allies.
Ordo Xenos Inquisitior Lord allows for any one alien race to be yellow. *except nids
Ordo Malleus Inquisitior Lord allows for Chaos as green allies.
Battlefleet Armageddon fleets count as being both Imperial Navy and Space Marines as native fleet.

[unseelied]

Curious as to the thinking behind matrix being unequal depending upon the main fleet.  For instance for some reason Chaos Main is best buds with Eldar(which seem strange by the way) while Eldar main is only allies of necessity with Chaos.  Necrons main are best buds with Chaos but Chaos Main is Hostile to Crons.  Whats the reasoning behind it?