Advice on Imperial vs Chaos

[Islacrusez]

Few matches I've had with my pal against his Chaos fleet have been pretty equal. Only match I lost was when he had much more attack craft thanks to Desolator, and even then it was fairly close.

Sounds like a somewhat higher point game than we're playing... Desolator being a battleship if I recall? Do you have any experience with a lower point match-up?

IMO, Chaos cruiser look more scary than they actually are. Sure they're fast, cheap and good firepower, but in practice much of that firepower goes wasted against 6+ prows of the Imperium (or Tau!) and once the Imperials get closer, Chaos loses their range advantage, also torpedoes start to make damage.

Losing the range advantage is not an issue, as I feel at an advantage in the short-range as well. I don't think the Imperium can argue with a broadside of 42 plus 6 lances from just three ships. Even the broadside of 20 from 2 ships has proven to be devastating. The torpedoes, if they can be brought to bear, have done damage, but bringing them to bear has been an issue. Chaos ships are very fast, even without AAF, and torpedoes can be easily avoided. (Even more so with the marker width 3 rule, which we are not yet using).

Also what has been said about Nova cannon, it's a great way to make Chaos player nervous early on.

Very true! That thing is pretty scary, especially since it's not a guess-range weapon anymore unlike my opponent first thought! Mind you, he did score a direct hit on one of my cruisers in the last game. The massive doom weapon, a perfect hit, d6 damage... Rolled 1.

edit. also, if your cruisers penetrating his formation is really a big problem, then maybe he needs a tactical reserve. Maybe a Lance Dauntless or squadron of frigates kept behind his main formation, if something gets inside his formation, the frigates will shoot them into face from point-blank.

Does an escort squadron have sufficient firepower to bring to bear against three capital ships?

The murders cannot stay in place. Every turn they will be at least 12.5 cm closer. The four lances on them will only hit two times per turn on average. That means they won't be threatening to the imperial cruisers. On their way in the slaughters shall be attacked with torpedoes. Since you move them on AAF they are in a nice straight line so I can align my ships nicely.

This is true, but one must consider the size of the battlefield - only 120 long - which means that the board can be crossed and distance closed in a single AAF move if used correctly (and the dice willing). I'm also not going to fly straight into torpedoes if I can help it

Also: use the official reload rules. Makes it easier for us to give advice.
The running out on a double rule no longer exists.

I wasn't aware of such a rule ever existing until I spotted its removal in the FAQ/Errata documents. It's actually noted in the special rules for Reload Ordnance on the cheatsheet, but I hadn't spotted it. The rule we normally fall afoul of is that once a leadership test for special orders is failed, the fleet cannot attempt another until the following turn. That's why during one game only one reload was ever made.

I'm also happy to use the standard rules for testing new information and suggestions, as even the smallest changes affect balance. I do believe that easy reload is in favour of IN more than Chaos.


Again, thanks to all those who are weighing in with their thoughts and experiences! Are there any more fleet list suggestions?

[AndrewChristlieb]

You have all three of your Slaughters in one squad and they're not constantly braced? I would single target one of them with everything i could, you would then be forced to either watch that one ship suffer a horrible horrible death or brace the squadron significantly reducing their effectiveness.

Your at 1005 points? If he's having problems like this I would probably go for two Tyrants or Dominators (if he would rather have novas) in a squad, 2 Lunars in a squad and a single Gothic supporting the Dominators. Add in a Fleet Admiral and a re-roll and your at 995-1005.

If your getting your ships right in the middle of his I would use the torps to alter your course to one side or the other, from there they can keep their prow to you and try to split your three ships with his fleet. With a pair of Tyrants on his soft prow at least one will likely have some damage after the approach, significant damage if he can make good use of his torps.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

He should save his torps untill you are in range and have no cgance to avoid them. Or use them when he needs you to alter course.

When you drive between him he should be pounding you. IN vs Chaos is not as one sided as you are making it out to be

[unseelied]

Maybe you are just a better player?  I'm just not seeing where he is getting creamed so bad.  Two murders at long range is either four lances which unless they are locked on is two hits or 20 batteries which is 10 attacks with a bad shift for range which against 6+ armor is still two shield hits on average.  One of his ships loses its shields and takes no damage.  Next turn he should be in range to torp you.  Torps are a front arc weapon so if he is facing you he really can't miss.  Six torpedoes should be something like two hull points worth of damage so if he unloads four salvos into one of your ships it should kill it if you don't brace and cripple it if you do.

Slaughters are tough cookies with a lot of firepower for their size but still if you AAF you'll only have half dice.  If you get within firing range its 7 closing and one lance which is crap as you still need sixes with the guns so you might take down his shields.  If you are abeam of him its even worse dice.  Even three of them together would at most cripple a single ship and take enormous amounts of return fire when its his turn as you will be very close and in range of everyone.  Seems weird to me that you are so easily crushing him.

I would advise you to next time switch fleets and have you play Imperials.  See what you can do with them.  Maybe its the admiral.  I've been playing this game since it came out in, I think, 1999 and I am pretty good at it.  Four Imperial cruisers and some escorts should be able to give you a good game against your fleet.  With you having no attack craft and him having torpedoes he actually should have an advantage.   

[Vaaish]

They do? If they're pointing their prow at you, you're well out of range for any weapon that accounts for which way they're facing. We're yet to find anything that can range Murders until you get to battleships. At 45 you get into range with the Tyrant, but you come up against a combined broadside of 20. That's 10 shots against you if you're closing and at long range. Somewhat less if you're abeam - and if you want to bring your guns to bear you will have to be... if you haven't paid for your upgrade then you can trade shots until your ship falls apart.

yes, they do. IN 6+ prows basically negate the dice advantage for shooting at a closing target. With 10 dice you should average maybe 2 hits which is just enough to drop shields. The lances let you engage farther out and lock on for better odds.

If you are trying to trade shots with chaos at range, it's no wonder he's losing. Range and speed are chaos advantage, torpedoes, 6+ prows, and 30cm are IN's. For example, up close two murders give you 20wb (you won't be able to combine the lances to help). Up close, two lunars give you 12wb and 4 lances.  it's generally accepted that each lance is equal to about three points of battery strength so that gives you 20 WB vs 24 WB on the lunars.

As others have said, you should use the regular torpedo reloading rules.

He might also go with a steamroller list and see how it works. 2x gothic, 2x dominator, maybe two dauntless or escorts for the balance.

[horizon]

And if one fails a Reload order there is always something as a re-roll leadership option if you have it available. 

[afterimagedan]

I would avoid novas if you want to steamroll. Lunars and Dictators are where the magic is at. I am a big proponent of the steamroller IN.

[fracas]

2 dictators for combined ordnance attacks
2 lunars with nova cannon as gun ships

[FistusMaximus]

i do think the "better admiral" thing might be the largest issue, since i play IN fairly often against my buddy with chaos and it always ends up with a massive rape for chaos, losing pretty much every ship and in return only doing minor damage to my IN....

simple dice luck might also be a good part of it if its true what you mentioned (almost neer making any RO checks, that is a big bash for IN, but chaos doesnt really care)

[horizon]

2 dictators for combined ordnance attacks
2 lunars with nova cannon as gun ships

Correct, add a retribution as a battleship and you have a real good IN steamroller. However for now we must focus on non carrier fleets.

[Haranin]

Are you using the charts for column shifting battery fire?

IN is combined arms, harder to get a handle. Chaos is easy at first since the ships are self specialized.....

[Islacrusez]

Are you using the charts for column shifting battery fire?

Most certainly.

simple dice luck might also be a good part of it if its true what you mentioned (almost neer making any RO checks, that is a big bash for IN, but chaos doesnt really care)

It's true, sometimes the dice just don't play with us. Like the nova cannon direct hit for 1 damage (did nothing), the no-reload torpedoes, and the strength 12 salvo vs blast marker. Main reason we tweaked the torp rules - for one they're kinda silly, and two it's just unfair on IN with they way we roll.



Thanks for the various feedback guys. I'll get back to you with results once we have a chance to put it into practice!

[Talos]

@Islacrusez The fact that you are winning is probably due to the fact that you are a better general. In complete honesty IN vs. Chaos is probably the most balanced matchup in the game, due to the fact that the rules were designed around them as the basis and there strengths/weakness counteract each others.

Part of the thing with IN is squadrons. Imagine one murder versus one lunar. The Murder would probably win due to its superior range/firepower. But now imagine 2 vs 2. Assuming chaos starts firing first, locked on lances will deal 1 hull to the closing imperials. The imperials then move forward with an AAF and use a combined torpedo salvo. This inflicts an average of 2-3 hull points. The chaos cruisers then break one direction, firing at side armor and causing no actual damage on average. The Imperial cruisers then do 4 hits on average, crippling that cruiser. Then it's all downhill because the IN cruisers can turn faster due to their shorter movements, allowing them to kill off the cripple and then his pal in short order.

[Evil Mic]

Hm, I see de last post is about weeks old,...
I hope I still can help you a little bit.

By reading all the other posts, I saw a lot of advice what ships you should take. So i start with that, too.

Have you ever thought about using a battlecruiser?

I peronally don't like the Overlord, and the Mars is a carrier, so these are not really a solution.
So, look for the Armada rulebook. There you find the Armageddon battlecruiser.
This vessel provides you a long-range firepower almost strong enough to equal those of your enemy.
if you even take two of them (waht is no problem at 1000 Pt) you are the one who dominates the early game.



If I understand you right, then yout opponent goes AAF with his Slaughters "into" youre fleet and fires all he has?
Ok, the Imperial Navy hast no (normal) cruiser with the broadside Firepower a Slaughter has.
So you have to try to use youre bradsides and your Torpedos simulatniosly.

At the beginning of the battle try to position your vessels not directly opposite to the enemy's but shifted to one side. Then after a littl bit of closing you turn your vessels towards your enemy. (One Turn bevore he is in range!)
Then you can go on "lock on" an fire al your broadsides at one ship. Locked on, at a closing vessel with 5+ you can do a lot of damage!)
If you did this all right (and your enemy did not interact) you should be able to attack another vessel with your torpedos.


I knwo that real battles always go other ways that previously planed, but maybe this will work in the on or the other way.

All in all you avoid the risk of loosing torpedos in blastmarkers an use all your power at the same time.

[Islacrusez]

Armageddon actually looks pretty sweet... A good answer to just about all the Chaos firepower being fielded.