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Author Topic: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos  (Read 11606 times)

Offline Islacrusez

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Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« on: July 04, 2013, 02:28:01 PM »
Hi guys, new to the forum so please don't shoot me!

I'm having a bit of an issue with getting into BFG. My friend has purchased an Imperial fleet, I've taken up chaos, and after three battles of 1005 point fleets, Chaos seems to be winning. Why would my three wins be a problem? I demolished him so bad that it's just not fun.

My first fleet consisted of 2 slaughters, 2 murders, a squad of 3 iconoclasts and a squad of 3 infidels. (I believe a 100 point warmaster and some marks of chaos made up the difference)
My second and third fleet were both of 3 slaughters, 2 murders, and a squad of 3 infidels. (50 point warmaster)


We're doing our best to stay away from launch bays, because we're still getting to grips with the rules and the last thing we need is dozens of fighters zipping around the battlefield. That said, I'm told that the Imperium was never big on anything that wasn't a broadside. After looking at the available ships, and their stomach-churning point-cost, we've come to the conclusion that either IN sucks, Chaos is OP, or we're doing something very, very wrong.

Any Imperium players out there that could offer some advice on how to fight this fleet?

Our current rules are those available on PDF from Games Workshop, though since our battles I've also picked up the FAQs for clarifications. For our final fight, we tweaked the rules to say that escorts have 2 hp (with the possible exception of cobras and iconoclasts, as the weakest escorts) and are automatically destroyed if a crit is rolled (as per the original rules, assuming I'm reading them right); and that torpedoes are automatically reloaded in the ordnance phase of their next turn, but the reload ordnance special order may be taken during the same turn to reload them immediately, ready for firing on the following turn.

Edit: it should also be noted that our field size is a dining room table - a grand total of 120cm by 75cm
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 04:06:42 PM by Islacrusez »
Quite crucial to be able to tell minefields and rally points apart...

Offline unseelied

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2013, 02:57:01 PM »
I think that the imperials do better in larger point games due to their nice battleships.  Having said that though IN is still a strong fleet so I am not sure what the problem is. I tisn't the attack craft as chaos will generally have more of that anyway.   What ships is the other guy bringing? 

IN normally sticks together in a large block formation keeping its 6+ armor noses towards the enemy while closing( shooting nova cannon if they have them) , then launching torpedos when in range( which you wouldn't be able to stop since you are not using carriers) and finally reaching the enemy lines and firing broadsides either within your line or in front or in back of it.  Is he doing this?

Offline Islacrusez

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2013, 03:06:29 PM »
The last battle fought involved two lunars, a tyrant and a gothic, plus cobras by the looks of it. At some point there was also a dauntless and some swords.

With regards to formation, he usually started in a spread out formation which spelled his downfall as I immediately put my Slaughters into all ahead full and broke any formation he was hoping to attain. As far as we can tell I actually have him outpaced, outgunned and can field more ships at the point cost!

A solid block formation would probably do him good, as my most devastating attack is from getting a squadron of slaughters between his ships and unleashing a devastating broadside, bringing all my weapons to bear. However, I would then be able to take potshots at him with the murders and their range 45 broadsides and range 60 lances!
Quite crucial to be able to tell minefields and rally points apart...

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2013, 04:24:09 PM »
yes, IN should be kept together rather than spread out. I've had opponents try to AAF slaughters and the outcome is usually just dead slaughters with minimal damage to me since they hit the core of my fleet with no support.
-Vaaish

Offline Islacrusez

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2013, 04:31:27 PM »
However, how would you then approach the bombardment by murders and the torpedo harassment from the infidels? I have forwarded the advice, and hope that it will improve my opponent's strategy!
Quite crucial to be able to tell minefields and rally points apart...

Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2013, 07:13:37 PM »
His dauntless and escorts should be taking out your escorts and their torp harrassment. Plus his own turrets. Chaos don't really have alot of torp power to talk about, so that shouldn't be his biggest worry.

At smaller games I do think Chaos has the edge, but when you get bigger and start including powerhouse BBs, it starts tipping to IN.

He needs to do his best to keep his 6+ armour to you untill he can bring his fiercer broadsides to bear.

As well, a Nova Cannon would be a great boon to him.
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Offline unseelied

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 07:50:51 PM »
Your torpedo reloading rules are a little weird.  In the begining of the turn he would reload any ships that are unloaded, move them and then fire torpedos.  If he fails to reload he doesn't have any torpedos.  He doesn't get any until he does reload them.  If he reloads and then doesn't fire them they remain loaded.  He begins the game loaded as well.  Another trick is if he on AAF his torpedoes are still at full strenght, as only BFI and crippling half torpedo strenght.  Torpedoes also bypass shields.  I am trying to think of a reason his torpedos aren't ripping you a new one as you really can't stop them with anything.

Anyway he should stay close togther, say no more than 10 cm from each other, with his main gunline and send any escorts to engage yours.  He can withstand the peppering from the murders as their firepower at range isn't that scary and his armor 6 is fairly tough. If the slaughters AAF their weapons are at half strength and they will be separated from the rest of the fleet.  Basicly he will have a local advantage against them.  Concentration of fire is very important in BFG.  He should try to get his whole gunline in range of one of the slaughters and open up with everything on it until its crippled rather than engaging ships here and there.  Same with torpedoes.  Save them until you can move into range and then unload them all on one ship.   Keep together, face the same direction and stay that way until you get into knife fight range.  The IN needs to all work together as a team to get things done. 

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2013, 08:01:30 PM »
Murders have to point their prow at you to get the best effect, that means I'll be shooting at them in the closing facing and boosts my WB against the soft 5+ armor. Of course, having a more solid indication of the fleet he took would help too. based on what you mentioned up there, 2x lunar, tyrant, gothic, dauntless, and 4 cobras, he's got a very eclectic fleet.

If he's using a lance dauntless, it might work better to take 3 swords instead of the cobras and use that to hunt the infidels and eventually the murders. That should also give you points to swap out the tyrant for a dominator to have a NC to answer  for long range.

If it's a torpedo dauntless, keep the cobras and dauntless together to hunt the infidels. all it should take is one good torpedo salvo and you'll have toasted infidels.

There's a lot of variables, but it might be that his fleet needs a few tweaks to really work well.
-Vaaish

Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 10:58:13 PM »
It could also be you you just have a much better grasp of naval tactics than he does ;D
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Offline Islacrusez

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 11:11:21 PM »
Your torpedo reloading rules are a little weird.  In the begining of the turn he would reload any ships that are unloaded, move them and then fire torpedos.  If he fails to reload he doesn't have any torpedos.  He doesn't get any until he does reload them.  If he reloads and then doesn't fire them they remain loaded.  He begins the game loaded as well.

We modified the rule so that they automatically reload at the end of the following turn, which I believe is in line with Rogue Trader rules (though I may be wrong). Reasons for this include the fail special order and get no more rule, the fact that reloading your weapon shouldn't be that hard, and the fact that during one game we only managed one reload between us.

Another trick is if he on AAF his torpedoes are still at full strenght, as only BFI and crippling half torpedo strenght.  Torpedoes also bypass shields.  I am trying to think of a reason his torpedos aren't ripping you a new one as you really can't stop them with anything.

Not being able to land a hit with said torpedoes might be the main reason. The other reason being that he only gets to fire them once under the standard rule because of failing leadership every time. One time he managed to drop a strength 12 torpedo salvo on me... and hit a blast marker. Rolled it and the whole lot went up. However, it may have been that at the time we were rolling per blast marker because it wasn't clear in the rules (but I may be getting confused with a whole bunch of other things that aren't in the rules).

Anyway he should stay close togther, say no more than 10 cm from each other, with his main gunline and send any escorts to engage yours.  He can withstand the peppering from the murders as their firepower at range isn't that scary and his armor 6 is fairly tough. If the slaughters AAF their weapons are at half strength and they will be separated from the rest of the fleet.  Basicly he will have a local advantage against them.  Concentration of fire is very important in BFG.  He should try to get his whole gunline in range of one of the slaughters and open up with everything on it until its crippled rather than engaging ships here and there.  Same with torpedoes.  Save them until you can move into range and then unload them all on one ship.   Keep together, face the same direction and stay that way until you get into knife fight range.  The IN needs to all work together as a team to get things done.

Sounds pretty good, but remember the murders are a squadron and their broadside is then 20, so even at range you're putting out 10 against a capital ship that's closing.

As for getting into knife-fight range... He did even worse, seeing as the two ship types I field have a much higher broadside! Admittedly I have the advantage of getting between his ships, allowing me to split his fire between two ships and allow me to use both broadsides.

Murders have to point their prow at you to get the best effect, that means I'll be shooting at them in the closing facing and boosts my WB against the soft 5+ armor.

They do? If they're pointing their prow at you, you're well out of range for any weapon that accounts for which way they're facing. We're yet to find anything that can range Murders until you get to battleships. At 45 you get into range with the Tyrant, but you come up against a combined broadside of 20. That's 10 shots against you if you're closing and at long range. Somewhat less if you're abeam - and if you want to bring your guns to bear you will have to be... if you haven't paid for your upgrade then you can trade shots until your ship falls apart.

Of course, having a more solid indication of the fleet he took would help too. based on what you mentioned up there, 2x lunar, tyrant, gothic, dauntless, and 4 cobras, he's got a very eclectic fleet.

If he's using a lance dauntless, it might work better to take 3 swords instead of the cobras and use that to hunt the infidels and eventually the murders. That should also give you points to swap out the tyrant for a dominator to have a NC to answer  for long range.

If it's a torpedo dauntless, keep the cobras and dauntless together to hunt the infidels. all it should take is one good torpedo salvo and you'll have toasted infidels.

There's a lot of variables, but it might be that his fleet needs a few tweaks to really work well.

I do have his fleet registry to hand, but it's not all that useful as he changed his fleet for each of the three games. I kept mine for the last two games and even then it had been the addition of one more slaughter as a replacement for the iconoclasts.


I know you guys know a bit more about the game that I do, and I apologise if I sound like I'm just arguing for the sake of it. However, the three games we've played have been so painfully one-sided that the average person might call it quits.

My main issue is the points disparity. The Murder gets range 60 lance str 2 and range 45 str 10 broadsides, and full 25cm movement for only 170 points. You want something to match the range? You get your armoured prow, lose 5cm speed, and pay 195 points. You don't get the 60cm lance either.

The slaughter? Lance and WB broadside, 30cm movement, +5d6 on AAF, and dorsal WB (actually front, but dorsal firing arc), 165 points. That's a maximum broadside of 14 per ship. Plus 2 lance. At 165 points? What can the Imperium field for that price? And this is operating as a squadron of three now. That's a combined firepower of 42 to their main side, 24 to their off-side, and 6 lances both ways. The point disparity just keeps on giving...



But my rantings aside - what would you field against this fleet:

Squadron 1:
2 x Murder (2*170=340)
Speed 25, Turn 45
Chaos Warmaster (50)
Port WB, Str 10, Rng 45 (Port)
Stbd WB, Str 10, Rng 45 (Stbd)
Fore Lance, Str 2, Rng 60 (Fwd)

Squadron 2:
3 x Slaughter (3*165=495)
Speed 30, Turn 45, +5d6AAF
Port WB, Str 8, Rng 30 (Port)
Stbd WB, Str 8, Rng 30 (Stbd)
Fore WB, Str 6, Rng 30 (Port, Fwd, Stbd)
Port Lance, Str 2, Rng 30 (Port)
Stbd Lance, Str 2, Rng 30 (Stbd)

Squadron 4:
3 x Infidel (3*40=120)
Speed 30, Turn 90
Fore Torps, Str 2, Speed 30 (Fwd)
Dorsal WB, Str 2, Range 30 (Port, Fwd, Stbd)

Total points: 1005
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 11:21:32 PM by Islacrusez »
Quite crucial to be able to tell minefields and rally points apart...

Offline fracas

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 11:19:27 PM »
Imperial need to stick together, and squadron up.
As part of a squadron, only the closest cruiser can be targeted by the opponent. Use that to one's advantage

Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 11:41:12 PM »
Maybe try the bfg:r ship profiles to try and resolve the disparity.

as well the 6+ prow is worth its weight in gold. And remind your friend about ramming
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 11:45:11 PM by Gothmog Lord of Balrogs »
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Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2013, 12:05:50 AM »
I think, since no ac are in use I would try my hand with

Fleet Admiral + reroll= 75
Tyrant + upgrade= 195
Dominator= 190
Lunar + power ram= 185
Lunar= 180
Gothic= 180

Total= 1005
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Offline Backfire

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2013, 01:12:53 AM »
Few matches I've had with my pal against his Chaos fleet have been pretty equal. Only match I lost was when he had much more attack craft thanks to Desolator, and even then it was fairly close.

IMO, Chaos cruiser look more scary than they actually are. Sure they're fast, cheap and good firepower, but in practice much of that firepower goes wasted against 6+ prows of the Imperium (or Tau!) and once the Imperials get closer, Chaos loses their range advantage, also torpedoes start to make damage. Also what has been said about Nova cannon, it's a great way to make Chaos player nervous early on.

edit. also, if your cruisers penetrating his formation is really a big problem, then maybe he needs a tactical reserve. Maybe a Lance Dauntless or squadron of frigates kept behind his main formation, if something gets inside his formation, the frigates will shoot them into face from point-blank.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:26:02 AM by Backfire »

Offline horizon

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Re: Advice on Imperial vs Chaos
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2013, 06:24:54 AM »
The murders cannot stay in place. Every turn they will be at least 12.5 cm closer. The four lances on them will only hit two times per turn on average. That means they won't be threatening to the imperial cruisers. On their way in the slaughters shall be attacked with torpedoes. Since you move them on AAF they are in a nice straight line so I can align my ships nicely.

Also: use the official reload rules. Makes it easier for us to give advice. ;)
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