BFG:R Vote 70: Chaos Light Cruisers

[afterimagedan]

Chaos Heretic, Schismatic, and Unbeliever.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Just an FYI, even if you vote "No they should not exist", I'll still add them to ASC 2.0 if they get removed from BFG:R. There are people out there who have lovingly converted models to represent these vessels, and to remove it completely from existence would be bad form.

Even if 9 votes were to erase them, and 1 to put them in ASC 2.0, that is reason enough to put them in ASC. Since they would become unnofficial as a result, and require opponents permission to use, there would be no reason to not have them in ASC 2.0 for the one person that does want them. You just don't have to play against them if you don't want to.

[connahr]

i think it makes sense for chaos to have light cruisers. Most chaos ships are former imperial navy vessals that have turned rouge or been captured, so it is very likley that light cruisers have been captured or turn rouge whilst on patrol at the edges of imperial space

[Vaaish]

Chaos was designed without them intentionally. The slaughter is effectively the chaos equivalent to a CL. It's similar to how there are certain aspects of each race that help define them. For example, Marines don't have full cruisers or IN limits long range weapons to CB and higher ships while Chaos sports 60cm lances on their basic cruisers.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I voted for the work but improve category. I think that stricter selection in fleet lists would be all that is required and the ships themselves are fine IMO.

[ehlijen]

The argument that chaos should have them because they stole them from the IN doesn't really work for me. If BFG worked that way, we'd have a lot more overlap between the two fleets. Instead, GW deliberately made them very different, both in visual style and capabilities and thus I think they should stay or go solely on how well they fit into the chaos fleet.

And I think they could be made to fit, with some restrictions and work. They weren't well balanced in the book of nemesis, but that doesn't mean that can't be fixed.

[Neferhet]

For me they should exist, but not in the BFG:R document, just in the Extra 2.0. I don't feel chaos need them, nor they fit the chaos bg very well.

[Armiger84]

I guess my question is, what's the bigger issue?

(1) the very concept of light cruisers in a Chaos fleet;

(2) those three specific light cruisers and their balance/degree of play testing; or

(3) light cruisers added to the long-established core Chaos BFG fleets (Gothic Incursion, 13th Black Crusade and its derivative Powers of Chaos lists)?

I can totally understand (3), and even (2) if its a matter of balance and stat creep.  I do have a hard time believing that the Imperium never built a single light cruiser hull until the 37th Millennium or that no Siluria or Dauntless crew has ever gone renegade, or that none have ever made it into a pirate or raider's fleet (I have an equally hard time believing that every minor pirate king has access to a battleship and fleet of heavy cruisers).  Is it really more a matter of stats needing to be balanced and an appropriately-themed list be built from the ground up to make them meaningful and appropriate choices?

[Vaaish]

It's more of a deliberate choice not to include them for the sake of fleet play style. Fluff wise you can probably justify nearly all of the chaos vessels and Imperial vessels being accessible to both races, however that doesn't make for very interesting match ups. Just because you CAN make something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.

[horizon]

Hi Armiger,

As I said before, I find it very reasonable to see Dauntless, Siluria's and Endeavours to go Renegade (unpublished Battlefleet Koronus stuff supports this).

The 2010 rules provide in this. Thus Chaos does have access to light cruisers.

And, where there CL in the old times? With the Grand Scale of everything with the Imperial Army and all I can imagine that with the need of Conquest, not exploration, that no real CL existed that mattered to the warfleets.

Now, I do see why people do build them, because they can and it is fun to see how such a ship looks like. Should we provide rules for them? There isn't a strict line to say no, but there is also no reason why we should.

And with this we can appreciate Gothmog's Additional Ship Compendium. I think this is the best place for them. Just like ASC2.0 covers all holes within the Imperial Navy Battleship line up it can cover the Chaos Light Cruisers.

And lets not forget, in the end it is what you and your group/opponents decide to play with. Really, if all like them play with them, if not don't.

As for tournaments, they are rare. And Adepticon shows us that you just need to make clear what the organizer likes to be the rules available to the players.

[Backfire]

And, where there CL in the old times? With the Grand Scale of everything with the Imperial Army and all I can imagine that with the need of Conquest, not exploration, that no real CL existed that mattered to the warfleets.

Light cruisers play important role in fleet actions too, not to mention as escorts and patrol vessels. I'm pretty sure old Imperial Army had them too and as such there is little doubt that Chaos Light cruiser exist or existed. However, I have to agree that I struggle to think for a role for them: in Imperial Navy they have a place because their cruisers are slower, but Chaos cruisers are fast by themselves. Also, they don't have a model.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

And even though the Imperium was expanding, they still had to leave vast conquered swathes of space behind the battle lines defended from piratical raiders. Even back then they had issues with orks and dark eldar.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

So asc class is coming up after sm. Do you all think these ships should be worked on or added as is?

[Bessemer]

Why not? Now they're ASC, the window is open.

[ehlijen]

Apart from swivel torpedo launchers just not being a good idea (or neccessary on 90 turn ships), I think they're ok.