BFG-R Bakka

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

GC aren't in the fluff for the original Bakka, but you have to take that with a grain of Salt since the original Bakka list was written before the vengeance was even thought of.

I wouldn't be upset with just the Avenger, but I'd like the vengeance too. I feel you are slightly overthinking/over reacting to the turrets, but that may be just my personal bias on it too.

As well I, the other reason I think both would be nice is that there is currently only 1 list that has GC in them, and that is the Bastion fleet list. It would be nice to see that option elsewhere and I feel this is thematically the best place for it. And it just seems odd from a fluff perspective that only the Avenger is in use in Bakka, and not the Vengeance as well.

BUT if no one else feels this strongly, I'd vote for it with just the Avenger.

[afterimagedan]

Ideas on the table:
-adding 1-2 GCs
-changing the turret upgrade to 10pts (considering there are integrated +1 turrets for capital ships)

Anything else?
I think Bakka shouldn't get all the GCs because it seems like the Bastion fleet is their home and one of the primary bonuses of the Bastion fleet. The Bastion fleet represents "Battlefleeets Cadia, Agripinaa, Scarus and
Corona, in particular." So, the Bastion fleet represents a pretty sizable amount. Bakka can bring them in a reserve ship. I think it would be better to keep them at that arms length.

The turret upgrade, which is essentially a 2nd additional turret, has replaced the ability to easily take a launch bay cruiser. Now, any type of carrier is really hard to get, beside the Emperor with Rath (which is really expensive). That second turret primarily helps them against bombers but actually isn't super effective against most things, especially against Necrons (who turrets don't matter against), the Eldars (turrets only hitting on 6+). Keeping the turret upgrade at 5pts seems fine.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I think +5 points is good for the turret upgrade, but +10 points on BB/GC

[afterimagedan]

From what I can tell, BBs are not allowed to take that upgrade. If GCs are included, I don't see why it should be 10pts instead of 5pts. Cruisers and GCs will both have 3 turrets in Bakka and I don't see a reason to price them differently, that's if the GCs are included.  I think leaving it how it is now is the best option. No GCs in the list (to allow that to continue to be one of the reasons to take a Bastion fleet) and no additional turret upgrade option for BBs. What do you guys think?

[Armiger84]

That's fine with me; leaving them out means they're still possible as reserves in big games anyhow, just makes them rare.

[Vaaish]

Dan: I realize the summary at the start of the thread just hits highlights, but the document that Andrew put together for the fleet list has the turret available to any imperial ship for +5 points. The intent was that any ship could add a turret.

This follows the pattern of the 2010 FAQ bakka list here, albeit allowing the upgrade for escorts:
"Bakka- any capital ship of Battlefleet Bakka can add +1 turret to its profile for +5 points. This upgrade does not count against refits ships can take normally."

[afterimagedan]

Ah OK, My assumption is that the BBs won't have an integrated additional turret considering they can buy one?

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well, with the focus shifted to light cruisers as the -base- even with the requirement of four instead of three the typical price has dropped some.


I wont cry if the escorts lose the option to take extra turrets either but it makes sense that they would have the option, although I don't think I've taken any with extra turrets while testing.

The only ships with the integrated turret are the basic cruisers and light cruisers. 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

From what I can tell, BBs are not allowed to take that upgrade. If GCs are included, I don't see why it should be 10pts instead of 5pts. Cruisers and GCs will both have 3 turrets in Bakka and I don't see a reason to price them differently, that's if the GCs are included.  I think leaving it how it is now is the best option. No GCs in the list (to allow that to continue to be one of the reasons to take a Bastion fleet) and no additional turret upgrade option for BBs. What do you guys think?

I say 1 GC in the list. Leaving them only in the Bastion list leaves them to languish. I guess I go with Avenger, so it isn't a MUST TAKE choice, but still a fluffy and viable option. And since it doesn't come with the integrated extra turret, I don't think it is "broken". Just gets +1 turret for +5 points like the rest of the fleet.

Would prefer also allowing the vengeance since the Bastion fleet has other advantages to Bakka (access to carriers, access to Chaos ships, veteran Captains), but wouldn't be upset if it didn't happen

[afterimagedan]

But see the advantages you listed already have a counterbalance. Veteran captains counterbalance the -1 Ld, carriers are counterbalanced by the Bakka turret bonuses, and the Bastion access to Chaos ships is the same as any other IN fleet. If you compare the Bastion fleet to other IN fleets, the GCs are one of the primary perks of using their fleet. Gothic sector has the Dominator, Armageddon has SM stuff. Most of those bonuses aren't very large. Bakka has limited ships and no carriers and harsher reserves penalties but gets the turrets, Rath, and some awesome ships that no one else has.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Bastion lists are the only ones that can take Chaos ships as reserves.

[afterimagedan]

Gotcha. Forgot the reserve fleets.

[afterimagedan]

Ok, so do we need to just vote on the inclusion of one or more grand cruiser and then vote to finalize? I think that is where we are at.

[Vaaish]

We've been discussing this, and all we really need to do is add the avenger and use the FAQ2010 wording for buying the extra turret. The extra turrets on escorts sound cool but they don't really do anything useful in practice since you won't be using bombers on them most of the time and it makes for a rather expensive suicide ship to block AC waves.

With those two changes, we just put the list up for a single vote, no need to vote on IF CG can be in the list and then vote on WHICH CG go in the list. you did after all create the commission to keep things from devolving into that level of minutia.

[afterimagedan]

Dan has asked me to post up the proposed Bakka changes. A little background here. Dragon Lord, Tyberius, Vaash and I have been working in the background to try and go through the several iterations of the Bakka list in order to get together a list that eliminates or fixes some of the many issues people have had while trying to steer the list towards the given fluff for the sector and create a unique twist on the standard IN fleet style.

Ship list and changes:

Escorts:

Havoc, Sword, Firestorm, Viper no change in stats

Light cruisers:

Siluria, 2 turrets instead of 1, remains 100 points

Dauntless, Endeavor, Endurance each receive +1 turret at 5 points over BFG-R base.

Cruisers:

Lunar, Tyrant, Gothic each receive +1 turret at 5 points over BFG-R base.

Battlecruisers:

Cardinal, 200 points.

8 hits, 25cm speed, 45* turns, 2 shields, 5+ armor, 3 turrets

Port/ Starboard 2 lances 45cm range r/l

Dorsal 2 lances 60cm range r/f/l

Prow 6 weapons 60cm range r/f/l

Mercury, 260 points.

8 hits, 25cm speed, 45* turns, 2 shields, 6+ front/5+ armor, 3 turrets

Port/ Starboard 8 weapons 60cm range r/l

Dorsal 2 lances 60cm range r/f/l

Prow 1 Nova 30-150cm range f

May replace prow nova with str 6 torpedoes -20 points. Equipped with targeting matrix base. Always counts their hits as 12 when determining the to hit dice for a plasma drive overload or warp drive implosion. The Fluff Idea behind this is that the ship is an advanced progression of the Overlord class fitted with battleship power reactors and all the fancy new doodads that the Overlord gets as optional upgrades (+1 turret, Targeting Matrix).

Battleships:

Retribution, Victory, Vanquisher all BFG-R base

Emperor, 0-1 and may only be included if Rath leads the fleet (removed the option to take an Emperor as reserves)

Fleet list:

Fleet Command:

Fleet Admiral, Admiral, Solar Admiral all per BFG-R.

Rath, BFG-R stats but restricted to fleets over 1000 points.

Re-rolls, Secondary commanders per BFG-R.

Capitol ships:

Battleships 1 may be taken for each full 750

Battlecruisers 1 may be taken for every 3 cruisers/light cruisers

Cruisers 1 may be taken for every 2 light cruisers

Light cruisers 0-12

Escorts:

standard, any number in groups of 2-6

Ordinance:

standard

Reserves:

Due to Battlefleet Bakkas relatively low priority they require 4 of any given ship type (battleship, cruiser, escort) to take 1 reserve.

Notes:

Imperial ships with 6+ prow armor may take a prow ram +5 points.

All Imperial ships may take an additional +1 turret for +5 points.


Admech, FDT, and any carrier options were removed from the base list.

Dan has mentioned allowing Admech reserves at the standard 1 for every three other ships and to keep it so they don't disengage when crippled.

So we take this and replace the earlier stated rules and make it (from 2010 document) "any capital ship of Battlefleet Bakka can add +1 turret to its profile for +5 points. This upgrade does not count against refits ships can take normally. Reserve vessels may not be given this upgrade, but any vessels from the Battlefleet Bakka fleet list used as reserves in other fleets may take it with them." That would allow for 5 turret battleships to get to 6 turrets. Is that how it's supposed to be? That, and we should add the Avenger just like it is in BFG:R at this point. Good?