ASC 2.0 Imperial Navy

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

So I figured that the list for the Additional Ship's Compendium 2.0 was pretty much complete/developed for the Imperial Factions. See the full list below:
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5479.0

This topic is specifically for the development of the IN ships on that list for use in BFG:R. Please give feed back (or provide new/alternative profiles yourself!)

If there is a change from the original stats, I will put the original in paranthesis next to them.

I'm going to kick it off with the Battleships:

Invincible Class BB- 300 (290) 290
Hits: 8
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 45*
Sheilds: 3 (2) 2
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 3 (4) 4
Weapons
Port Weap Battery- R: 60cm  S: 12 Arc: L
Stbd Weap Battery-  R: 60cm S: 12 Arc: R
Dorsal Lance Battery- R: 60cm S: 4 3 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes- Speed: 30cm S: 9 (6) Arc: -
Special Rules: AAF 5d6 (not on the original). Roll twice when checking for critical hits. When a critical hit is inflicted, roll an additional d6. On a 5+, an additional fire critical hit is inflicted. Roll 4D6 for Plasma Drive Overlord Catasrophic Damage results (not on the original). Even though the Invincible has less than 3 shields and 10 hits, it MUST be mounted on a large (60mm) flying base, as it still has the presence of a Battleship, just none of the staying power.

Nemesis Class BB- 375 (400) (Make it much closer to the Emperor)
Hits: 12
Speed: 15cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 4
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 5
Weapons:
Port LB- Furies: 30cm Starhawks: 20cm Assault Boats: 30cm S: 6
Stbd LB- Furies: 30cm Starhawks: 20cm Assault Boats: 30cm S: 6
Dorsal Lances: R: 60cm S: 3
Special Rules: Prow sensors +1LD, Cannot use Come to New Heading SO. May take ABs for +5 pts.
(My only other thoughts are droping the lances and switching to S5 Prow and Dorsal WB to mirror the Emperor BB.)

Reprisal Class BB- 370 (375) (Ret is 355)
Hits: 12
Speed: 20cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 4
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 5 4
Weapons
Port WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: L (Changed to reflect changes made to BFGR Retribution)
Stbd WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: R
Port LB- Furies: 30cm Starhawks: 20cm Assault Boats: 30cm S: 2 Arc:-
Port LB- Furies: 30cm Starhawks: 20cm Assault Boats: 30cm S: 2 Arc:-
Dorsal lances- R: 60cm S: 3 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes- Speed: 30cm S: 9 Arc: F
Special Rules: Cannot use come to new heading. +5 pts for Assault Boats. (My only other thoughts are to maybe pump the WB back up to 60cm, lower the S, and make it 15cm speed)

Terra Class BB- 355 (410) (made to be much closer to the Retribution adn Vanquisher)
Hits: 12
Speed: 20cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 4
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 5 4
Weapons
Port WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: L (Changed to reflect changes made to BFGR Retribution)
Stbd WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: R
Port Lances- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 2 Arc: L (Changed to reflect changes made to BFGR Vanquisher)
Stbd Lances- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 2 Arc: R
Dorsal lances- R: 60cm S: 3 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes- Speed: 30cm S: 9 Arc: F
Special Rules: Cannot use come to new heading. (Looses the left column shift bonus) (Only other thoughts are that maybe some of the ranges, either WB, Lances, or both should be bumped back up to 60cm and the ship get a point increase).

[Armiger84]

Insomnia's winning, so you get my commentary on your proposed changes.

Invincible Class BB- 300 (290)
Hits: 8
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 45*
Sheilds: 3 (2)
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 3 (4)
Weapons
Port Weap Battery- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 18 (12) Arc: L (THIS IS BASED OFF THE CHANGES MADE TO THE RETRIBUTION)
Stbd Weap Battery-  R: 45cm (60cm) S: 18 (12) Arc: R
Dorsal Lance Battery- R: 60cm S: 4 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes- Speed: 30cm S: 6 Arc: -
Special Rules: AAF 5d6 (not on the original). Roll twice when checking for critical hits. Roll 4D6 for Plasma Drive Overlord Catasrophic Damage results (not on the original).

First off, keep it at 2 shields & 4 turrets. I can understand your desire to balance her a bit more, but you're falling into the same trap that the lore says the Bakka fleet lords fell into

She's not a ship of the line and was never meant to be.  A third shield significantly improves her survivability, and the whole point is she's fast & maneuverable, but incredibly fragile.  With 4 turrets and 2 shields, there's little/no incentive to send bombers after her, especially when a lock-on order and a pair of Carnages can go straight to the Twinkie's cream filling.

As for tweaking the gun ranges, I'm less insistent they remain how they were, but 60cm guns keep her firmly in the "dance around the enemy's flanks" role she's meant for, while 45cm guns force her to close to where she's an easier target and an easier kill.  It might be better for the ship to leave her as she was.

I'm passing on commenting on the Nemesis; never played with or against her or Battlefleet Corribra, so I'll leave that up to people better qualified than I.

Reprisal Class BB- 370 (375) (Ret is 355)
Hits: 12
Speed: 20cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 4
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 5
Weapons
Port WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: L (Changed to reflect changes made to BFGR Retribution)
Stbd WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: R
Port LB- Furies: 30cm Starhawks: 20cm Assault Boats: 30cm S: 2 Arc:-
Port LB- Furies: 30cm Starhawks: 20cm Assault Boats: 30cm S: 2 Arc:-
Dorsal lances- R: 60cm S: 3 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes- Speed: 30cm S: 9 Arc: F
Special Rules: Cannot use come to new heading. +5 pts for Assault Boats. (My only other thoughts are to maybe pump the WB back up to 60cm, lower the S, and make it 15cm speed)

She's built as a Retribution, sans 1/3 of her weapons batteries, swapped for launch bays.  I'd either keep her as a modified Retribution (drop the battery range and up the strength as you did), or turn her into a modified Oberon.  Of the two, the modified Retribution feels more interesting (and I like having a few 20cm move BBs around... though that -might- make her too tempting vs. the Oberon, what do other people think?).

Terra Class BB- 355 (410) (made to be much closer to the Retribution adn Vanquisher)
Hits: 12
Speed: 20cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 4
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 5
Weapons
Port WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: L (Changed to reflect changes made to BFGR Retribution)
Stbd WB- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 12 (8 ) Arc: R
Port Lances- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 2 Arc: L (Changed to reflect changes made to BFGR Vanquisher)
Stbd Lances- R: 45cm (60cm) S: 2 Arc: R
Dorsal lances- R: 60cm S: 3 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes- Speed: 30cm S: 9 Arc: F
Special Rules: Cannot use come to new heading. (Looses the left column shift bonus) (Only other thoughts are that maybe some of the ranges, either WB, Lances, or both should be bumped back up to 60cm and the ship get a point increase).

I feel like you're breaking away from the Imperial Terra's lore too much by chopping her down to Retribution-esque stats.  She's much closer to the Omnissiah's Victory/Ark Mechanicus in design (and based on her lore, probably closer in her technology too), and for that, Str 10, 60cm, left column shift (if you're going off The Book of Nemesis you got her battery strength wrong), with up to 5 lances to make that broadside extra nasty is actually pretty tempting even with her points cost.  Strip that all out and you do her background lore a disservice and make her just a bland Retribution rebuild, IMO, and that's not nearly as fun or interesting.  Her points might need a little tweaking, but that's all I'd want to play around with maybe, and use the Omnissiah's Victory as the reference point.

Of course, take all of this as the opinions they are, and I'm just one contributor

[horizon]

Amiger brings up good points.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Replying on my phone so I will make the  changes to the profiles later.

I see your point with the invincible. Agree on the shields and turrets Except she is still a BB and one could argue the 8 hits and double critical his make it fragile.  Plus as a BB it should have 3 shields or more than 10 hits to be on a large base. As proposed it would be on a small base. But I'll do the change unless more people oppose.

As for the WB, it is fragile so 60cm would probably be better, though I am thinking more along the lines of S 12 than S 10.

Are the proposed AAF and catastrophic damage changesc acceptable. Felt it better matched the fluff.

Nemesis is almost unchanged. I think leaving the lances is best.

I'm going to keep the reprisal as a modified Retribution.  Probably tale another look at the fluff and make sure it days as much (battle refit).

Will talk on the terra later.

[horizon]

Hi Gothmog,
small note: is it you who will make the decision on how a vessel will end up in the document? (eg like you are doing with the Reprisal).

For Revised all changes etc  has been voted for; majority decides.

Just asking. 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

It'll be a vote. I was just talking aboutv leaving the proposed profile for the reprisal as I have listed above like armiger talked about. If you disagree or have feed back please contribute so a consensus can be reached.

 May make small changes to fluff with out voting but any major change s would be proposed and voted on.  I personally think the terra needs a major fluff over haul.

[Armiger84]

The Invincible BBs and Blasphemer BBs are tough to balance.  Both ships seriously "break the rules" relative to other battleships, which is a lot of why they aren't, and I think shouldn't, be in official lists.  As it was originally written, the Invincible was a Retribution with +5cm movement, could come to a new heading, +1 dorsal lance (probably to keep it priced up closer to 300pts I'm guessing? Never quite understood why it was given that), and had -4 hit points and -2 shields, and doubled up on critical rolls.

I know the base size rules weren't quite hashed out at the time she was published (compared to where they were after the 2008 FAQ and since then), but for a 70 point discount you got a Retribution that ran the risk of popping like a soap bubble, and I really suspect the reduced shield envelope was deliberate on the part of the designer.  This is me musing out loud, but the difference in survivability between 2 & 3 shields on a GC hull (i.e. a Repulsive) is pretty significant, I feel in games it's just as noticeable as the difference between 1 & 2 shields on a SM Strike Cruiser.  Soaking that extra point of damage per turn does a lot for a ship.  I'm personally fine breaking suggested basing rules by putting her on a big base regardless of whether she fits the exact requirements; she breaks the rules anyway.

That said, I'm still vacillating on the gun range/strength.  Since the Invincible is a supercharged Retribution, going to Retribution guns does make a bit of sense.  Plus, she's going to spend a lot of time on BFI (unless her player really likes gambling), and there's a decent difference in effectiveness between Str 9 and Str 6.

Fragile's important to me on the Fast BBs mostly because it really changes the way you play the ship, and punishes you for treating her like a line BB.  I feel that up-shielding her would take away from that, as would increasing her hull points.  These things are really difficult to use effectively, and that's kinda the point.  They're good special scenario ships, horrible line ships, and increasingly rare in the lore (as they keep blowing up and aren't getting replaced) to boot.

As for the Imperial Terra... Honestly, it's an Ark Mechanicus.  She's a neat historical part of the fan-side development of BFG and the Book of Nemesis isn't going anywhere, but I feel like she's sort if irrelevant in light of the AdMech list anyway.  I guess what I'm really suggesting is (and I'll try doing this too), compare her in Nemesis against the BFG:R Ark Mechanicus and see if her points cost is justifiable.  If so, leave her be.  If not, adjust points to fit the creators' intent rather than changing someone else's lovingly crafted lore.

Each of these ship classes (including the Nemesis) are in their lore so rare and so few were produced that they are in essence "special characters."  None of these ships really need to be tournament-ready, balanced, and appropriately costed.  If they were, they'd be in the "official" lists.  That said, I do support tweaking them in minor ways here to bring them into BFG:R fleet list parity so that people could use them worry-free in their own home-grown fleet lists for scenarios or themed campaigns against BFG:R fleets.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Reset the turrets and shields to the original. Will add a rule saying it must be on a large base. The only question remaining is WB? Go with the change or bump them back up to 60cm?

As for the Terra, the point is to make it NOT an Ark Mechanicus. As well, I developed the 1st Terra class on the original forums (in 2003) LONG before the book of Nemesis (2007). Originally it was suppossed to be a BB sized Lunar Cruiser (thus why I chose the name "Terra"). The first one's fluff was based off the Battle of Jutland. So if anyone changed lovingly crafted lore, it was the Nemesis guys, however I would likely use the fluff mostly as is now, but remove the aspects of it being a "super battleship". This is for 2 reasons, 1- making it different than the Ark (and in doing so making it more similar to the Retribution. Fits in the IN better and avoids in game redundancy), the other being that the logic of it using "rare resources" doesn't make sense. The Imperium has, for all practical purposes, UNLIMITED RESOURCES.

Basically make it a lost predecessor to the Lunar Class and have them search for the STC technology.

[horizon]

It'll be a vote. I was just talking aboutv leaving the proposed profile for the reprisal as I have listed above like armiger talked about. If you disagree or have feed back please contribute so a consensus can be reached.

'kay. Keep it on. 

Invincible, keep it on a large base. With 8 hits imo.
As for the Blasphemer, one of the designs that never sparked me from the BON.
Reprisal, upping batteries to 12 is fine. But it makes it a pretty strong vessel. hmmm. Thinking again on this little bit.
The Terra would need the same treatment. But I rather keep all this @ 60cm.

The issue... keep upping things and things might start going up up... aka power creep.

With so many Imperial battleships around it is hard to position all of them in what they can or cannot do.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

It'll be a vote. I was just talking aboutv leaving the proposed profile for the reprisal as I have listed above like armiger talked about. If you disagree or have feed back please contribute so a consensus can be reached.

'kay. Keep it on. 

Invincible, keep it on a large base. With 8 hits imo.
As for the Blasphemer, one of the designs that never sparked me from the BON.
Reprisal, upping batteries to 12 is fine. But it makes it a pretty strong vessel. hmmm. Thinking again on this little bit.
The Terra would need the same treatment. But I rather keep all this @ 60cm.

The issue... keep upping things and things might start going up up... aka power creep.

With so many Imperial battleships around it is hard to position all of them in what they can or cannot do.

I upped the S on the Reprisal, but lowered the Range. Basically, the Retribution has S6 per hardpoint at 45cm, so I thought I'd do the same with both the Reprisal and Terra, but they only have 2 harpoints. The Terra was lowered from 60 to 45 so that it would better mach the Ret, be different than the Ark Mechanicus, and be cheaper than the Ark, making it a possibly more practical choice.

[Bessemer]

Invincible
The points made above are good. I find myself leaning in favour of the 60cm batteries though. It does help keep it at arms length, given it's glass jaw

Kind of find the 2 rolls for critical hits to be overkill though. would any of the following be better?

1. Roll 2 dice for critical hits, can't cause more than one to be inflicted however.
2. Suffers critical hits on 5+.
3. Re-roll critical hits.
These could even be applied to the Blasphemer.

Does it really need the forth lance?

Nemesis_{AKA Super Jovian}
Have used this back in the day. As with all all AC ships it has the critical flaws of a failed Ld check or innoportune BFI rendering it impotent. Hell, when I last used it, you could still run out of ordnance, which is exactly what happened!
But that's the risk with these beggers.

I would be in favour of keeping the lances, and bumping them up to str4, just to help offset it's weaknesses a little more. That would jack up the cost though.

Reprisal
Agree with your above changes, but it does kind of encroach on the Oberon's role, with better speed and frontal armour to boot. Even with speed 15. Still, these ships would require opponents permission to use, and you can just take an Oberon as lists allow, so I don't see it being that much of a problem.

Terra
Deffo on loosing the range shift, or at least making Turbo Weapons an option. Not to sure why it should get 5 turrets though. I say give it the standard 4, it's not a carrier after all (Another optional?).
It's your creation, though. Do what you will!

That's my 2-pence worth anyway

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Invincible
The points made above are good. I find myself leaning in favour of the 60cm batteries though. It does help keep it at arms length, given it's glass jaw

Kind of find the 2 rolls for critical hits to be overkill though. would any of the following be better?

1. Roll 2 dice for critical hits, can't cause more than one to be inflicted however.
2. Suffers critical hits on 5+.
3. Re-roll critical hits.
These could even be applied to the Blasphemer.

Does it really need the forth lance?

The damage is along the lines of the original, and I think it should stay as two. Otherwise, with its high speed and ability to use Come to new heading, it would be alot easier to use as a ship of the line without it.

As for the WB, bumping it back to 60cm seems to be a general consensus. So what should the S be if it goes back to 60? 10 or 12?

Nemesis_{AKA Super Jovian}
Have used this back in the day. As with all all AC ships it has the critical flaws of a failed Ld check or innoportune BFI rendering it impotent. Hell, when I last used it, you could still run out of ordnance, which is exactly what happened!
But that's the risk with these beggers.

I would be in favour of keeping the lances, and bumping them up to str4, just to help offset it's weaknesses a little more. That would jack up the cost though.

Should there be some rule about veteran hangar bay crews, making it so you could reroll RO checks?

Reprisal
Agree with your above changes, but it does kind of encroach on the Oberon's role, with better speed and frontal armour to boot. Even with speed 15. Still, these ships would require opponents permission to use, and you can just take an Oberon as lists allow, so I don't see it being that much of a problem.

It is also shorter ranged. I'll also bring the turrets back down to 4, since it is really supposed to be a Retribution refit. Oberon can also bring more WB to bear on a single bearing, so I think it is fair.

Terra
Deffo on loosing the range shift, or at least making Turbo Weapons an option. Not to sure why it should get 5 turrets though. I say give it the standard 4, it's not a carrier after all (Another optional?).
It's your creation, though. Do what you will!

That's my 2-pence worth anyway

Turbo Weapons seems more out of starwars than warhammer. I agree on removing the 5th turret. I think it was just copypasta carryover.

[Bessemer]

As for the WB, bumping it back to 60cm seems to be a general consensus. So what should the S be if it goes back to 60? 10 or 12?
Would scale to 12 at 60cm

Should there be some rule about veteran hangar bay crews, making it so you could reroll RO checks?
Not really. Thems the breaks when going all AC!

It is also shorter ranged. I'll also bring the turrets back down to 4, since it is really supposed to be a Retribution refit. Oberon can also bring more WB to bear on a single bearing, so I think it is fair.
True. I actually forgot BFGR made the Oberon all 60cm. Was hoping to edit before any replies!

[Armiger84]

I'm pretty sure the Imperial Terra was just supposed to be a stupidly expensive wishlist overkill ship.  Retribution -2 weapons battery strength, +2 lances, +1 turret, +left column shift, she's basically supposed to be what the Ark Mechanicus became.  I'm more and more willing to say "just leave it in Book of Nemesis" and if you want a Terra-class battleship with a mix of lances and guns that isn't simply an Ark Mech, build it from scratch and/or bring up your prior ship design for it, Gothmog.  In line with your simple fix, str 12 45cm broadside batteries, str 2 45cm broadside lances, str 2 60cm dorsal lances, and str 9 prow torpedoes gets an Imperial player a "budget" Ark Mechanicus that would still cost nearly as much as one, just lacking refits and not being quite as god-modded.  Paired with a Retribution she'd be a nightmare though, and that's probably the one time I'd actually squadron battleships <shudder>.  The carnage that could unleash in a 1500+ points game... well, you'd get your points investment back...

I'm totally fine with lopping a dorsal lance off the Invincible.  Would make it pretty solidly 290, maybe marginally cheaper.  I'd either keep the critical damage 2 dice per hit, or set it so it's 2 dice per hit, count 1, if you wanted to make it marginally less fragile (two 33% chances to get 1 crit are still pretty solid).  As another possible option, critical strikes as standard, but critical strikes automatically inflict an additional Fire! critical.  Part of me thinks this might be a decent fix, the rest of me thinks this would probably destroy the ships even faster.  Whatever we do for the Invincible should be echoed on the Blasphemer though.  Keeping Fast Battleships consistent is a must.

Actually, I think the Reprisal should probably also get cut down to str 12 45cm batteries (treat as Retribution, remove str 6, replace with hangars).  Would make it distinctly a retrofitted Retribution, compared to the Oberon which is more of a retrofitted Emperor.  In that light, keeping the turrets down would make sense too, but bumping it up 1 wouldn't be exactly horrible either... I feel like there's decent justification to go either way.

It would make sense for the Reprisal and Terra (or alternatively, change the name) to be retrofitted Retributions.  "Hey, this ship design works, let's tweak it a little..." is definitely an Imperial/Adeptus Mechanicus approach to innovation.

Edit:

I find myself coming back to the discussion about the Gothic and the Tyrant vs. two Lunars from a few weeks back, and from prior to that.  Part of the reason the Tyrant wasn't simply a Dominator with torpedoes was to prevent it from being a perfect non-squadroned pairing with a Gothic, and to keep the Dominator and Gothic an imperfect squadroned pairing (of course, two Lunars squadroned would be the balanced squadron ideal, but there's the downside of shared special orders).  In the same way, the Apocalypse and the Retribution were probably also deliberately designed to pair imperfectly.  You could squadron them, but it's not optimal.  Similarly, the Victory and the Vanquisher aren't perfect pairings for a Retribution either.  We do run the risk of creating dangerously good pairings here if we simply modify the Retribution stat line and just swap out one weapons system.  Just food for thought.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Changes made to the Invincible. 60cm S12 batteries. I did however bump the Torpedoes up to S9 rather than S6. Just more fitting of a battleship. Okay move? Will cut it down a lance though to keep it consistent with the other BBs. So last questions, S9 Torp okay and should it be 300 or 290 pts?
As for the crits, I say the 2 choose 1 is too durable and the auto-fire is too fragile. HOWEVER 2 choose 1 (highest) combined with 5+ crit is okay. This would be a 1/3rd chance of crits and be very consistent, whereas roll twice is less likely BUT potentially more damaging with 2 crits. So what should it be? A consistent rate of crits OR a lower rate with a more random outcome?

As for the Reprisal, I think we are all on the same page, make it a refitted Ret. This is perfect as it should be in the Battlefleet Corribra fleet list.
And as for the Terra, it seems that the two paths are make it an Ark Mechanicus or cut it down to make a Retribution refit. Since there is already an Ark in the game players can use now(and it came out AFTER the book of Nemesis) and you would likely already have to take the Terra as reserves as well since it is ASC ship, then I think the cutdown retribution refit works best. And as Armiger said, it is a great compliment to a Retribution and the two could make a scary pair. As for them being "perfect" pairings, I'd say that they don't add significant amounts of added flexibility between them to be "perfect". As well, as unofficial ships, you would need opponent permission to use them anyways, so the fact that they would likely be used for fun or for the fact they are powerful anyways, so not too worried there.