How many launch bays do you prefer to have in your fleets?

[Daemon_Primarch_Lorgar]

I've tried to search for similar threads but I was unfortunately unsuccessful to establish an alliance with the search tool .. So, as the title says: how many launch bays do you prefer to have in any 1500 or 2000pts fleet? The reason I'm asking is that in the last game I played (against Tau), he had 3 battleships in 1.5k and they were pumping out so many torpedoes and bombers each turn that I barely reached his lines with my IN cruisers before I got torn to shreds . I had 1 Mars solely on defence duty and I'm planning on adding a Dictator for 2000pts, but my question still stands: Are 8 launch bays (generally speaking) enough in an 2000pts IN fleet? I don't really want to list tailor to beat anyone, so apart from using both the Mars and Dictator in 1500pts (as well as 2000pts), how would/do you handle Tau mass ordinance?
And where would you personally draw the critical line in ordinance superiority (for example: is it possible to have half the number of launch bays as your opponent without playing an uphill battle? Or can you cope with less/need even more?)

[horizon]

Hey,
3 Tau battleships gives an ordnance pressure most cannot wither.

I know most will tell you that an Imperial or Chaos fleet should go with a minimum of 8 launch bays in 1500pts.
Personally I am different...lol... My Renegade (Chaos) fleet only has 1 Styx in 1750pts (or 1500pts). My Imperial Navy has 1 Dictator in 1500. My AdMech has...ehm... none but allies in a a Strike Cruiser or a Dictator. My Corsair & Craftworld does have more, about 8 launch bays in 1500pts. My Tau fleet (CPF), depening on selection, will have a minimum of 8 launch bays.
Then again... I also field 9 escorts in my Renegade fleet & Imperial Navy fleet. 

I never faced the Tau spam, but I did face many Terror Kroozers, or Emperors backed up with Mars battlecruisers. So in most cases I am more used to having less launch bays or the same number, having more will only happen when I play with Tau.
But I do have torpedo's/missiles which I really like. Having more torpedo's in my renegade fleet then one of my opponents Imperial fleet is funny. 
(Torpedoes can harass enemy ordnance or at least what the opponent deploys)

Now, how to handle that Tau fleet?
Well a similar fleet won Adepticon twice (3 Explorers, 2 Hero's, 9 Orca's, Defenders).

The thing is: you want that ordnance out. So you want them at least braced so they can't reload. Use your Nova Cannon to target them. And don't be fooled: Nova Cannon are not cheesy and fielding three in 1500pts is not overpowered when using official rules and such.
Tau do not like being close. Get past their prow and they will feel less sure about their position. So, what can you do? .... swoooosshhh All Ahead Full to them (and d*mn the torpedoes as they say ).

Or instead of the usual cruiser clash setup play scenarios like Fleet Engagement or Escaliting Engagement. Still fleet battles, but they need a different thinking and one can't rely all that much on a pre thought battle plan.

edit:
Questions:
1) How big was your table?
2) pumping out bombers every turn? Remember: one may only have as much bombers in active play as one has available launch bays in play at that point.
Per example: you have 1 Mars meaning 4 launch bays. Meaning you can launch 4 bombers and have them in play. You can reload next turn but may only launch new ordnance if the first four have been removed from play.
Just posting this because from your post it seemed he kept playing ordnance each turn.

[Armiger84]

(Can you tell I'm bored out of my mind at work today?)

I used to play a friend who brought a Dictator, Mars, and Emperor to 2000pt games.  I... well, as much as I wanted to play to Chaos's strengths with assault boats, I gave up on trying to win the attack craft arms race and played defensively with fighters.

It's probably a good rule of thumb to bring 4 launch bays per 750pts or part thereof, just to be able to cope with ordnance-heavy lists and play defensively.  When fleets are more evenly matched for attack craft, that'll leave you enough room to try playing offensively too.  The advantage an Imperial player has is they can easily use torpedoes to try to forcibly remove the opponents' fighters and/or torpedoes (although the latter's nowhere near as effective).

Part of the reason the 2008 & 2010 FAQs capped the amount of attack craft you could launch is, I suspect, the very frustration you're dealing with (and I was before that change).

Best I can say is, you need at least one more carrier at that points level, possibly two, to get enough fighters out to restrict that opponent's effectiveness and at least achieve a state of ordnance equilibrium on your way in.  Mind you, the second you reach 20-30cm ranges, torpedoes and bombers pretty much become direct-fire weapons and it's down to who can brutalize their opponent more & faster.

[horizon]

Part of the reason the 2008 & 2010 FAQs capped the amount of attack craft you could launch is, I suspect, the very frustration you're dealing with (and I was before that change).

They capped ordnance back in 2001 (or even 2000 iirc) already. Same as changing Nova Cannon from guess range to scatter weapon.

[RaptorEvolved]

Thats normal for the regular tay fleet, And the basic mainstay, the explorer battleship do exactly that pump out ordance and fighters/bombers,..but literally thats all they are designed to do. Honesly though there flet needs it because of the way it functions, it's not manueverable, but it makes up that function in spamming bomber andwhatnot. On the other hand you have Eldar and Dark Eldar fleets, where you can't spam out markers like the Tau fleet does,..and you don't need to, you can out manuever the fleet. I find that when building fleets I like to have somewhere between 4 and 8.

     4 gives me enough marker to deal with immediate threats and 8 allows me enough flexibility to go on the offensive once i've taken care of other bombers or fighter. All fleets function diffrent and some can sam more than others. For example in an Imperial fleet if you wanna out spam tau take 3 dictators squadron them and have them spearhead ahead of the pack, they would have enough ordanace marker to deal with everything and they would be very survivable. It's relly your call

[Daemon_Primarch_Lorgar]

Thanks for all the replies!

Your responses boosted my morale considerably . For a minute I thought that I had completely misunderstood the amount of launch bays I "had to have". I don't mind having less ordinance than my opponent and I enjoy a challenge, but for a moment there I was afraid I was some 12 launch bays short of even being able to give my opponent a run for his money . And that's no fun for anyone haha! Failing 4 out of 4 reload ordinance checks with ld 8 and re rolls might have hurt me some as well hehe! Don't get my wrong, it was a great game and we both had a really good time learning a lot from our mistakes, but now I am h*ll-bent on beating him in our next game (currently I'm brainstorming so many different tactics I can barely sleep at night! My god I think I have a new addiction !).

1) I think we had about a meter between us from the beginning .
2) I'll try to remember the attack craft limit next time! We're still figuring out the rules as you may have noticed from my amateurish questions .. The bombers weren't the only problem for me though. The torpedoes I faced could alter their speed and trajectory which resulted in no Tau ordinance ever leaving the board (it was a nightmare haha! Suddenly I was hit in the stern and prow at the same time by heavy torpedo salvos). I had to fire my own torpedoes to intercept just to minimise the damage and try not being crippled before I could get a grip on him with my broadsides (don't ask me how that turned out in the end ..). I'm planning on adding some Cobras for 2000pts though, they should help me intercept his combined torpedo waves without sacrificing all of my own.

I'll probably go for 8 launch bays in both 1500 and 2000pts then as I'm very fond of the army list I made (it's so nice and fluffy it makes me smile just to think about it ).

I have posted my army list on Warseer about a month ago (so I apologize, to all you guys who have seen and helped me with it over there already, for bringing it up again). But how would you try and beat this list ? Still trying to figure out my weaknesses here (except the mediocre amount of launch bays hehe!). Is there something I need to watch out for that this list might not be able to handle that well?

Imperial Navy Fleet

Imperial Retribution 355pts + PR 5pts

Imperial Mars Battlecruiser 260pts + Extra turret 10pts
Imperial Dictator 210pts + PR 5pts

Imperial Tyrant 185pts + PR 5pts
Imperial Gothic 180pts + PR 5pts

Imperial Lunar 180pts + PR 5pts
Imperial Lunar 180pts + PR 5pts

Dauntless (Torpedo) 110pts

Dauntless (Lance) 110pts

3 Imperial Cobra class Destroyer 90pts

3 Sword class Frigade 105

2005pts

------------------------
Support:
Admiral 75pts
Secondary Commander (1 extra reroll) 45pts
------------------------

And yes you are correct, my entire fleet would be 2125pts because.. Well it just is ..

[AndrewChristlieb]

Are you using the BFG-R Imperial list and if you are which one?

[Daemon_Primarch_Lorgar]

I'm using the BFG:R list but with the latest voting for the Tyrant (175pts + 10pts for range).

[Seahawk]

Make sure you're both using the same rules set. It sounds like he's using actual BFG, and you're using BFG:FE, which is a naughty thing to do.

I generally like to have 6-8 launch bays in my fleets, though one time I had three Dictators, a Mars, and an Emperor in 1500 points...

[Daemon_Primarch_Lorgar]

I think he used the BFG:R fleet for Tau as well, I don't know if it is the latest version, but it was the one on aftermagedan's blog.

Wow, was it possible for your opponent to handle that many launch bays in 1500pts?! 24 launch bays sounds insane ! Does anyone here use their direct fire weapons to target ordinance to any extent, or is that option just used in desperate situations?

[AndrewChristlieb]

Always use direct fire weapons to target ordinance if you cant target a ship!

Don't be so defensive with your ordinance. If your that badly out numbered in the ordinance game launch bombers. Your pitiful number of fighters are not worth launching, but a wave of bombers will either force your opponent to launch fighters of his own to intercept (and unlike the Mantas his fighters are not resilient so your already ahead there) or he will ignore them and you might get some damage from them.

Get some more ranged lances. If your using the Bastions fleet list a reserved Hades would be perfect, if not any Battlecruiser would be ideal but a second Mars would probably be the best fit. With two Mars and good maneuvering your likely to shut down two of those Explorers each turn with Nova cannons and maybe the third also with your lances, definitely if you lock on!

Ok so for a 2k game:

Command
Admiral: 75
Battleship
Retribution: 355
Carrier
Mars: 260
Mars: 260
Line Cruiser
Lunar 180
Lunar 180
Gothic 180
Tyrant (Range upgrade) 185
Dauntless (Torpedoes) 110
Flanking
Dauntless (Lance) 110
Sword (x3) 105

I have removed some of the bloat in order to keep it under 2k, With the leadership 9 Admiral and good use of squadrons you shouldn't have many problems with leadership so the secondary commander was removed. I also removed the Power Rams to save points and also because I have found in the past that they tend to make me look for reasons to use them which often results in less shootinz cuz wez iz smashinz! The turret upgrade for the Mars is a bit expensive imo also so that was cut.

This can easily be trimmed to 1500 for smaller games:

Command
Fleet Admiral: 50
Battleship
Retribution: 355
Carrier
Mars: 260
Mars: 260
Line Cruiser
Gothic 180
Tyrant 175
Flanking
Dauntless (Lance) 110
Sword (x3) 105

[Daemon_Primarch_Lorgar]

Thanks for the tips AndrewChristlieb!

Your logic is sound, I never launched a single bomber in my last game and forcing my opponent to launch at least some fighters instead of bombers would be a pleasant turn of events.
Unfortunately I don't have 2 Mars cruisers (built the fleet from my take on the fluff, so only got 1 of each cruiser except the Lunar), but I see what you mean with that a second Mars would be a perfect fit from a gaming perspective . But even though it's not optimal, I assume the Dictator/Mars combo can still be used to some effect? Nova cannons are really nice, however my other opponent plays Eldar and when facing him I noticed that I only got to fire it once (perhaps twice) before he was behind my fleet or inside my minimum range. So the Dictator might be a decent compromise in that sense? This is my current setup in regular fleet engagements:

-------------------------R-----------------------
----------------L--L---------T--G---------------
-----------DT---C---M---D---S---DL-----------

R = Retribution
L = Lunar
T = Tyrant
G = Gothic
DT = Dauntless (Torpedo)
C = Cobras
M = Mars
D = Dictator
S = Swords
DL = Dauntless (Lance)

When you say Flanking, do you mean splitting my fleet up or using some kind of reserves rule? So far I've found the cruiser line described above to work pretty well. The Retribution absorbes most of the hits with its 4 shields and is supported by the workhorses (regular cruisers), while the carriers are heavily guarded and have a good reach for putting fighters on CAP and in the case of the Mars: sniping away with Nova cannon shots . Whenever a cruiser is damaged it can back up and let its squad mate absorb the most pressing damage. The only part of the formation that seamed lackluster was the escorts and Dauntlesses that performed pretty poorly. Noticed quickly that I didn't manage to make full use out of them. My idea was to keep them safe and as rapid response force behind my main line to use whenever my opponent passed me but instead they were hit buy stray torpedo salvos that were directed against the line cruisers and folded fast with their 5+ prows. So any flanking ideas that you had that could help me get more out of these little things would be very welcomed !

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Dictator will do you fine in a pinch but remember it works much differently from the Mars so you may not want to squadron them as the Dictator is built to weigh in with the line cruisers and dish it out. I would try to bring in a second nova cannon still tho, the difference in price between the second Mars and a Dictator will allow you to buy that secondary commander which will allow you more leeway in separating your Dictator and Mars and it will allow you to upgrade one of you line cruiser to a Nova cannon. I would go for the Tyrant which can then also fill in for a Dominator if you choose to go for shorter ranged weapons although given your facing Eldar and soon Necrons I would stick with the extra range of the Tyrant.

Depending on how you deploy your forces I would setup your Swords and L. Dauntless on an angle so they come in abeam of the enemy and try to move around the back of them. If a large enough force breaks off to intercept you can always CTNH and run back to the rest of the line. Alternatively I like to keep these ships to the very rear and wait for the line ships to close. Once the line ships have closed you can choose to move in tight and finish off any heavily damaged ships or quickly move in to harass the enemy from the flanks or rear. The thing about escorts in BFG is that they really only work in support of the line cruisers and not on their own (although the Defender is pretty stout on its own now with the 2 hits!) You should keep them back away from the danger for the most part, see below fir the other part , and use them to finish off cripples, run down ships trying to disengage or flank your own fleet, etc.

Don't forget to mass your turrets also, against Tau you really only have Hero's and escorts to worry about as far as weapons so if your fairly clear of them bunch up for bomber waves or big groups of torpedoes.

You can always fall back on the sacrifice move too. Playing a standard Cruiser Clash will put you with in a turn or two of the enemy typically so try and take second turn. This will force them to close a small bit and will present the location of their ordinance to you so you can plan your moves. try and work it so that your the one initiating contact with the ordinance markers as that will allow you to throw a low priority target on them (a single cruiser on BFI such as your Gothic or even a single frigate). Their sacrifice should allow at least your long range ships to get close enough to touch the Explorers and hopefully lock one or more down.

[Facialmatters]

Hey there, having quickly rounded out my IN fleet with the demise of SG, I too am pondering this question.

We play with the vanilla FAQ2010 rules, so points are a bit different. This is an all-comers list against regular enemies of Tau, Eldar, Space Marines and Chaos at 1500pts, using the Seg. Solar, Armageddon Sector fleet list.

Admiral - 50

Apocalypse - 365
Dictators x 2 - 220 x 2 = 440
Armageddon + nova cannon x 2 - (235 + 20) x 2 = 510
Cobra x 4 - 30 x 4 = 120

=1485 (add in a few power rams)

Its a nice looking/sounding fleet, and I hope it stands up to ordnance-heavy Tau and Eldar as well as Chaos cruiser rush. I don't really like Mars' due to their conflicting order needs - you want to lock on to deal damage with the lances, yet also reload ordnance. Dictators have the nice bonus of torps being refilled with every reload ordnance order, and Armageddons have nothing but guns to fire at the enemy. The two classes have purity of purpose.

[horizon]

Hi Facialmatters,
Nice approach of a fleet. While the Retribution would be more of a common choice for that setup the Apocalypse makes a nice change.
However I would drop a Nova Cannon an a Armageddon. With those 35pts I would add a fifth Cobra (if you have one that is, otherwise my suggestion is moot ofcourse).