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Author Topic: BFG:R Inquisition  (Read 21311 times)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 05:13:07 PM »
Is everyone OK with my proposal in general? If so, I can start working on the document and we can add and tweak from there.  I play tested the fleet yesterday BTW. It was pretty cool.

Offline Armiger84

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BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 05:48:05 PM »
I like your suggestions, AfterImageDan, and your solution for representing "Deathwatch" with a terminator-equivalent teleport attack.  They're skilled and armed to the teeth, but in the lore they're supposed to be deployed in small teams, so a stat improvement to a ship would probably be excessive.  Most of the ship's crew would be Inquisition/Adeptus Astartes thralls anyhow.
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2013, 09:41:26 PM »
Most of any Astartes ships are thralls. Yet, space marines can still pay points to teleport attack with terminators.

Anyways, I think it would be better, either way, to make Deathwatch Kill teams into the honor guard upgrade and instead have Deathwatch First Company Veterans as their terminators. Make the upgrades available just like the SM Crusade fleet has them.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2013, 01:23:39 AM »
Here we go, after tons of time working on this.......

[BEGIN COPY AND PASTE MODE]
Recommended Revisions:

Inquisitors (this is really no different than it is now, just better organized)
Ld 9 Inquisitor
Ld10 Inquisitor Lord
-Inquisitor Lords belong to an Ordo. Chose one of the three Ordos that theor Lo Inquisitrd belongs to an apply the special rules that Ordo provides.

Ok, but I don't really see the need for two types. The single option makes it much more streamlined. Would this mean that an Inquisitor wouldn't be able to take an Ordo?

Blackship
-Blackship with an Inquisitor Lord is discouraged from upgrading because it cannot board. Instead, the Ordo Inquisitor should get a free reroll to mitigate the fact that it cannot use the boarding and H&R bonuses it is paying for. This would also represent the ability to utilize the psychic power of the Blackship.
-Blackship should not award renown for surviving because that only gives you the reward in campaigns. This should reward VPs if it survives. If it dies, the killer gets an extra 200vps (like it usually gives). If the Blackship survives uncrippled and not disengaged, it give the Inquisitor player 200vps.

Being it is a special vessel and will likely be the focus of scenarios then yes I would agree that the victory points is a good move. I don't know about the boarding deal tho.

Grey Knight Battle Barge needs its own page (I have already created it)

Word

Inquisitorial Cruiser (now 270 pts with the following rules)
-1 Inquisitorial Cruiser allowed per 2 Grey Knight Strike Cruisers. (if a Rogue Trader can have multiple RT cruisers, surely an Inquisitor can get more than 1 Inquisitorial Cruiser considering an Inquisitor's authority...)

Why? The Inquisition isn't a list in itself its an add on to an IN or SM list, having them be able to take more cruisers seems... odd.

Ordos
All of the ordos have problems. First off, the Ordo Xenos offering Xenos fleets D6x50 pts of escorts is hilariously bad. That has to go. There should not be a roll like that that can tip the game so much before the game even starts. Also, since we don't use Holofields from the original Eldar, the Ordo Xenos bonus has to change. The Ordo Malleus isn't so bad. It may need some rebalancing because of point changes to Marks and Daemonships. Ordo Hereticus gets screwed.

Proposed Ordo Changes (making your admiral an Inquisitor Lord from one of the following Ordos will give you some options):
Ordo Hereticus
-Canoness Superior (secondary commander exactly like they are in the IN list). This is a Sisters of Battle Order head.
-May take any Imperial, Adeptus Mechanicus, or Space Marines ships based off of the restrictions on those fleets with no penalty. This is due to the Ordo Hereticus being called upon to monitor other Imperial organizations. This way, we don't need weird rules for taking Inquisitors in other fleets. It would be considered that Inquisitors used with Imperial or Space Marine fleets, etc., would be Ordo Hereticus, which I think is entirely fluffy Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Lords are too busy leading the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch.

Ordo Malleus
-Brother-Captain (secondary commander exactly like they are in the IN list). This is a high ranking Grey Knight.
-Able to take Grey Knight Purifiers (functinon as Honor Guard) and Grey Knight Paladins (function as Terminators). These are the two orders of Grey Knights and I think that would be fluffy and fitting. :)
-Ordo Malleus ships are immune to the effects of Marks of Chaos. When fighting Chaos, the Chaos player may take 1 Mark of Chaos for free on any vessel of his choosing, within the rules restrictions per Ordo Malleus upgrade taken.

Ordo Xenos
-Watch Captain (secondary commander exactly like they are in the IN list)
-May take Deathwatch Kill-team (counts as Terminators). I think this is fitting and fluffy. Deathwatch = the best of the best.
-Any Hit and Runs caused by Space Marines in a fleet led by an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Lord may roll twice and choose their result. Xenos fleets fighting a fleet let by an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Lord may take another reroll on their admiral for free.
*all Ordos still have +2 to boarding, +1 to H&Rs, and -1 to H&Rs against it.

Refits
All Inquisitors should be able to purchase from a simple refit list. Consider the old BFG:R Inquisition fleet.

*The last page in the 2010 Inquisition document can be simplified greatly into quick bullet points. It doesn't need to be so dang big and bloated.
*I know that it is asking a lot, but I think the Grey Knight Strike Cruiser should be called an "Inquisition Strike Cruiser" because Grey Knights are only Ordo Malleus. Inquisition Strike Cruisers can be strike cruisers belonging to the Deathwatch as well.

I don't know about the changes to the Ordos either, once again the Inq is not a fleet list, its just an add on.
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2013, 01:39:30 AM »
But that's the thing, it shouldn't be. The Grey Knights and the Deathwatch both have their own fleets and those are the primary military arms of two of the Ordos. It seems weird to force the Grey Knights to take vessels from other fleets. Anyways, people will still be able to make a "Deathwatch" and "Grey Knight" fleets by taking strike cruisers, etc.

One of my main concerns is no one seems to be taking Inquisitors. Why? Well, why take an inquisitor when you can take a Master or the Fleet? The Ordo Xenos is way to risky because it adds points to the enemy fleet, potentially a ton of them. In could go on. There should be some incentive to talk an Inquisition fleet instead of a space Marine fleet, which should primarily be through Ordos and Inquisitorial Cruisers. There isn't really any other reason besides those and wanting to take a super varied fleet from various imperial sources.  I don't see people doing that, however...

Andrew, you are right about the Inquisitor at ld9. Its basically a simplified way to do it and give it more fluffy names for ld9 vs ld10. No different that 2010 besides that.

Adding in secondary commanders (fluffy), allowing for more than 1 Inquisitorial cruiser (realistic), allowing for basic space marine upgrades for the inquisition space marine ships, and fixing the messed up Ordos is really all it needs.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 01:44:18 AM by afterimagedan »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2013, 01:47:44 AM »
Oh yeah, my point about the Black ship is that you will basically not be using a LD 10 inquisitor in a fleet with a blackship because you pay points and get all sorts of boarding stuff that you can't use if you take an Ordo upgrade. That's silly.

For the cruiser, took have to buy Ordo for it and if you want a Ld 10 inquisitor on it, you have to buy another Ordo. Waste of points. So, you can't use an Inquisitor in an imperial fleet that isn't Ld9 without wasting points.

Offline Armiger84

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2013, 02:25:04 AM »
Edit:  Ok, bigger wall of text than I thought I was writing.  I apologize in advance!

I'm with AndrewChristlieb in terms of his general sentiment that the Inquisition should be a series of reserves options and scenario ships, rather than a full fleet list.  Totally going to catch some flak for this next bit, mostly because it's an interpretation of lore (and therefore inherently subjective).

I'm not even completely comfortable with Space Marines having a whole fleet list.  Yeah, I said it.  In the lore, you rarely see more than a single strike cruiser or a battle barge with a company, rarely more onboard, responding to strife on a planet.  I can see escorts having a role alongside a battle barge (who's going to send something that big in without any?), and can even more easily see small task forces of marines (maybe a handful of squads) deploying to a warzone on a Gladius because that's about what they need for transport.  THAT SAID, I'm happy we have the fleet lists (standard and dominion) because (A) they've helped identify weaknesses, (B) allowed us to grow and develop the concept of a "strike cruiser" into a class of vessels instead of a cookie-cutter ship, and (C) allow us to represent truly monumental undertakings or even roving crusade detachments (I can easily see a Black Templar Crusade deployed across a pair of strike cruisers and attendant escorts; that's a good example of where the lore would support a Space Marine fleet list, tbh).

How does this matter for the Inquisition "list"?  Well, everything that applies to Space Marines, goes double for the truly specialist forces.  I figure the Grey Knights probably have the luxury of sending their people around on strike cruisers and battle barges exclusively, and probably have a big enough fleet between the shipyards of Mars and Jupiter relative to the number of Knights in the field at any one time that they can afford to dispatch a handful of squads on a ship that could comfortably billet one hundred marines.  That said, you'd have to bend yourself over backward to try to create special Grey Knights escorts, and ultimately they'd just end up being overly expensive versions of Gladii, Novae, and Hunters, so that's not really worth the effort anyhow (and I'm assuming you wouldn't bother anyway).  As for the Deathwatch, the lore, at least as it's laid out in the RPG books, supports single-squad deployments on Gladii and Hunters to various warzones, in rare cases you might see enough Deathwatch brought together for a mission to warrant a strike cruiser.  I'm actually planning on painting up a Deathwatch strike cruiser and in my own internal debate decided not to bother with any special rules for them as the number of marines deployed on the ship would be so few relative to a full marine company on a strike cruiser that I figured it would simply average out to a "standard" marine strike cruiser in terms of bonuses and benefits anyway.

What I'd really like to see would be a "list" of reserves options with perhaps special rules (like "you can take a Black Ship to replace a battleship in any imperial navy list") for the Inquisition.  I don't really see too many Inquisitors having the patience or the training to orchestrate a void war, and they'd probably leave that to the commander of whatever battlegroup they hijacked, while worrying about their more focused goal (whether it be a "board the enemy ship" subplot, Exterminatus, or commanding a planetary assault).  On the other hand, I'd like to see a Sororitas Monastery Ship perhaps, although an astartes strike cruiser would probably cover that pretty well.

Also, as an aside, in Faith and Fire by James Swallow, the Inquisitorial Black Ship had a detachment of Sororitas onboard for maintaining order among the inmates.  That puts near-astartes defensive crew onboard, though I'd still see them not performing boarding actions as their purpose was solely to defend the ship and its cargo.

I'd also like to see Adeptus Arbites vessels too.  I really enjoyed the Shira Calpurnia series by Matthew Farrer (Enforcer is the omnibus) and I'd really recommend them as reading to anyone who wants to see what Hydraphur is like or how the Arbites interact with various Imperial institutions; he did a great job.  In that book, Farrer gives us Arbites-crewed intra-system corvettes and customs vessels (easily represented by defense monitors, I realize, but perhaps there's room to add more life and color to BFG?), and somewhere I've definitely come across a "Mobile Arbites Precinct" cruiser in the lore, which IMO would make a great addition to a scenario.

Ultimately, I feel like the Inquisition and other Imperial forces are better suited to scenarios and sub-plots than to a tournament list.  I feel like we have the opportunity here to, instead of adding one more tournament list to the game, really add some depth to some of the battle scenarios or add new sub-plot tables and the like.  With a "Pax Imperium" mini-supplement, we could add some interesting narrative gaming options that, while they wouldn't be standard fleet stuff, would still hopefully be attractive to gamers.

In case you're wondering, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and volunteering to be a part of this if people like what I'm suggesting here ;)
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Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2013, 03:59:02 AM »
I agree with Armiger84.

This is going to take a moment to get to a point about the inquisition, so bare with me.

There are 4 fleet powers in the imperium- The IN, Admech, Space Marines and Rouge Traders

The IN of course are the largest and most influencial naval force in the Imperium.
The AdMech fleets are typically not scene, but explorator fleets and forgeworld fleets do exist. However, these are still better to take as reserves in IN/RT fleets, as they typically would rather have others do the fighting or they have been petitioned to help, say on a crusade for instance.
The Space Marines are the most fiercely independent force in the Imperium. Sometimes they do fight alongside the IN, and Segmentum Solar fleet list represents that perfectly. And yes, most of the time they do operate 1-2 ships in an area at a time. BUT they still do fight fleet level engagements, and they seemingly prefer (or more often than not, are forced to) do that on their own. Obviously crusade and dominion forces have reasons for this, as either they are all travelling together, or defending the same area of space together. But there is plenty of precedence in the fluff for SM fleet level engagement. The enitrety of the Badab war, the Gildar Rift, the defence of Ultramar against the hivefleets. It is part of their independent nature to not rely on the IN to do certain things. And to be honest, most IN engagements in the fluff (read Execution hour) are small engagements anyways, not the fleet wide engagements that tournaments are.
Last fleet power are Rouge Traders. By their very nature, they have to be. Often RT families are 1 ship and a group of escorts, which is why they work best as reserves. BUT some of the largest most influencial families have somthing akin to a dominion or a crusade fleet for SM. Multiple ships for business, and/or to hire out as mercenaries for one of the many petty intra-system conflicts that plague the imperium. As well, they may very well be the core of an explorator fleet, striking out on a risky yet lucrative business venture and enlisting the support of the AdMech for financial backing and technical expertise.

The inquisition was not part of that list. They are too few in numbers and spread to thin. Sure, maybe once every blue moon the DW or GK fight as a fleet, but even then it is probably nothing bigger than a cruiser clash. They wouldn't risk their elite force like that when there are more expendable resources in the Galaxy, IE the IN, RT, and to a lesser extent SM. They rarely influence the AdMech, so thats why I did not include them there.
Even when it is a full on daemonic incursion, they still don't commit excessive forces. The first war for armaggeddon only saw 109 Grey Knights deploy. Angron had invaded, and had no less than 12 bloodthirsters. This is one of the largest incursions ever seen by the imperium, and all that was committed was 109 knights. And if you read The Emperor's Gift, you'd see that the Inquistion then just destroyed (or attempted to) all the other loyalist forces that fought there (other than the SW) to keep a lid on it. Another example is something like the Mordant 13th, or the lucky 13's as they are known. They were used extensively to combat chaos and then annihilated by other imperial forces when the job was done. They'd rather have other organizations fight for them and then dispose of them too afterwads than overly commit their own force. And really, why maintain your own main fighting force when you have the authority to just take some one elses (the IN). Heaven forbid they committed half the DW and/or GK fleet and they lost. That would be one of the worst catastrophies for the Imperium. Instead, just muster the IN, who havem more ships and can afford to loose them, and supplement with your forces.

Think of the Inquisition like SpecWar in the modern military. They are applied in small numbers where it is most critical. BUT they do join other fleets and crusade forces, or petition to have their own, so having them in a force and the Ordo affecting force composition makes complete sense.

The INQ should be fleet upgrades and/or a scenario driven force. Maybe if you wanted to represent a rare event like blackships redevousing before returning to Jupiter, you could compile a large solely INQ force, but that would be entirely scenario driven and not really a normal engagement, like what occurs at tournaments. More something you do purely for fun.

As for what Armiger said about arbites, what I think also should be developed is an extensive planetary defense PDF, and arbites being a portion of that. This is somewhat acceptable as a full fleet list to me, with access to IN reserves. BUT is also should be a list relied upon to be taken as reserves and supplement a IN list or scenario as applicable. Why this should be a full fleet list over INQ, is alot of the time planets are invaded/attacked with little notice and little more than their own forces present and the Imperium responds to the threat, rather than preventing it. You may have some IN patrol forces present, IE a cruiser and its escorts, which would be reserves.
This is a cool opportunity for a fleet of heavily armed yet ponderously slow system monitors and also a perfect place to work in Arbites vessels, like the punisher strike cruiser.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:08:52 AM by Gothmog Lord of Balrogs »
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Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2013, 04:17:44 AM »
As well, I just thought of one other thing. Why are there no SoB ships? Wouldn't they have some ships of their own? Like Daemonifuge style.
I imagine if the SM have forces, the Soriatas maintain their own. And they fight wars of faith, which would be a Ecclesiarch led force of IN and Soriatas ships
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Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2013, 05:19:13 AM »
So sentiment is:
Inquisition is a add-on article.

You can take Inquisitors with special rules with or without their special ships and add them to an existing Imperial, AdMech, Rogue Trader or Marine fleet.


Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2013, 06:01:57 AM »
First book in the Grey Knights series starts with a battle where 300 Grey Knights are committed.

Anyways, I concede. How about we do this...

You can take an Inquisitor in place of your admiral for IN, Admech, or SM fleet. If so, it allows you to take Inquisition ships such as Blackships, Inquisitorial Cruisers, and Inquisition Strike cruisers. You can also take Ordo upgrades for your Inquisitor Lord, which will allow for a limited Terminator and Honor Guard type upgrades plus their Ordo bonuses. Done.

What about that? That allows you to take just an Inquisitor or a limited amount more if you like.

Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2013, 04:09:35 PM »
First book in the Grey Knights series starts with a battle where 300 Grey Knights are committed.

Anyways, I concede. How about we do this...

You can take an Inquisitor in place of your admiral for IN, Admech, or SM fleet. If so, it allows you to take Inquisition ships such as Blackships, Inquisitorial Cruisers, and Inquisition Strike cruisers. You can also take Ordo upgrades for your Inquisitor Lord, which will allow for a limited Terminator and Honor Guard type upgrades plus their Ordo bonuses. Done.

What about that? That allows you to take just an Inquisitor or a limited amount more if you like.

I would say in addition to (ie an Admiral and Inquisitor if you wanted), but sounds good to me.
Would the Inquisitor have to be on an Inq ship. I would think not. Say if the fleet has an IN BB and an INQ cruiser, he may want to be on the BB instead.

I remember the start of the GK series now. If I am correct thought, that was an entire Daemon World they banished, no fleet engagement, and all GK were lost to a man...

I still like the ordos idea.

As for GK ships, I still like the idea of them having a BB and Strike cruisers. Though I think as a whole the INQ list should be an add on, I don't 100% like tying peoples hands, especially if someone actually bought multiple FW GK SC. Maybe have a line in there mentioning that the GK can be taken as a fleet. When doing so, use the Standard SM fleet list, but use the GK BB and Strike cruiser in the place of standard SM vessels for GK. Escorts are as normal. Such a fleet MUST take a master of the fleet. I would say no reserves outside of the INQ fleet be allowed, nor any Venerable BB. When the GK gather like this, it is "too perilous" for the other forces of the Imperium, or something like that.

This way you get to have your cake, and eat it too. And it makes more sense for the fleet to be Chamber militant oriented when deployed in force than Inq oriented.
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2013, 05:04:54 PM »
How about in place of or in addition to the regular admiral? That way, the IN admiral can be put onto another ship or could have taken a back seat to the inquisitor.

I think that's a good idea for Greg Knights. One of the perks of the Ordo Malleus could be that when taking a SM fleet with an Ordo Malleus Lord, you can take Grey knight stuff instead of regular SM stuff, not that theres much difference but still.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2013, 06:35:07 PM »
Quote
Any Imperial or Space Marine fleet  750 points or
greater may be led by include an Inquisitor Lord, who must be
placed on an Inquisition Blackship if one is present, or
on the most expensive ship in the fleet if one is not.
They must be aboard  an Inquisitorial Cruiser  if it  is
included  in the fleet, even if  it is not the most
expensive ship or a Blackship is also present.

Quote
Any Imperial or Space Marine fleet with an Inquisitor Lord may include a
single Inquisitorial Cruiser in the fleet, which takes
the place of a battlecruiser or strike cruiser in the
fleet. If an Inquisitor Lord is leading the fleet, Up to
one Grey Knights Strike Cruiser may be taken for
every 500 points in the fleet. A Space Marine fleet led
by an Inquisitor Lord may rely heavily or even
exclusively on
Include up to 10 Grey Knights Strike Cruisers if desired, which each take the place of a strike cruiser in the fleet.
in which case A Space Marine fleet relying heavily or even exclusively on Grey Knights Strike Cruisers may include a single Grey Knights battlebarge, which counts as a Venerable battle barge. may
be taken.
The fleet may also include a single
Blackship, which as a special vessel does not count
toward or against other ship limits in the fleet.

So something like that?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Inquisition
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2013, 10:34:02 PM »
I like it all but the inquisitorial strike cruiser limit. That's all I would change and also that an Inquisitor can replace the fleets admiral too.