Necron save vs. boarding or hit-and-run

[nkalakos]

How does the necron special save work against hit-and-run attacks or damage from boarding actions?

The wording is similar to BFI, which would imply that it can be used against hit-and-run attacks but not against boarding. I couldn't find any necron rules that specifically address boarding.

Niilo

[trynerror]

This Question came up on the old forum as well. Not really sure, but as far as I remember the answer was that you have to BFI to get the save for boarding actions and hit and run, because it ist not the hull that takes the damage but the interior of the ship. I don´t remember though if you get a 4+ or 2+ save on BFI for this type of damage. Maybe someone here knows better ?

[EasyPrey]

First of all: You get neither Necron Reactive Hull saves nor BFI saves against damage from boarding actions. The Necrons' Achilles' Heel, if you like ...

About hit&run: I'd say that Necrons don't get their Reactive Hull saves against hit&run-attacks as this save only applies against hits (Armada, p.74). So I guess they get the same BFI-save of 4+ against hit&run-attacks like everyone else; their combined save for Reactive Hulls and BFI of 2+ only applies against 'real' damage.

[nkalakos]

Gotta love GW rules writing. 

Reading the necron rules again, I get even more confused. I was under the impression that modifying the save to 2+ replaces normal BFI, but actually it nowhere says that necron ships lose their normal BFI saves. So, necron ship on BFI orders would get 2+ "special" save AND 4+ BFI save.

Boarding and H&R rules don't mention "hits", only damage or "applying the result" from critical hits table. But neither do the ramming rules. Would that mean that ramming damage would also bypass reactive hull save?

Niilo

[EasyPrey]

Reading the necron rules again, I get even more confused. I was under the impression that modifying the save to 2+ replaces normal BFI, but actually it nowhere says that necron ships lose their normal BFI saves. So, necron ship on BFI orders would get 2+ "special" save AND 4+ BFI save.

No. Look here: Click me!

Boarding and H&R rules don't mention "hits", only damage or "applying the result" from critical hits table.

Which is why BFI didn't work against them. It was later reviewed to work against hit&run-attacks (as a successful hit&run-attack is nothing less but a 'hit' against an escort), but it still doesn't work against boarding actions.

But neither do the ramming rules. Would that mean that ramming damage would also bypass reactive hull save?

How could you not consider each successful roll against the facing armour value of the enemy ship a 'hit'?

[nkalakos]

Reading the necron rules again, I get even more confused. I was under the impression that modifying the save to 2+ replaces normal BFI, but actually it nowhere says that necron ships lose their normal BFI saves. So, necron ship on BFI orders would get 2+ "special" save AND 4+ BFI save.

No. Look here: Click me!

Well, thats what I expect. I just keep wondering why GW can't write what they mean.

Boarding and H&R rules don't mention "hits", only damage or "applying the result" from critical hits table.

Which is why BFI didn't work against them. It was later reviewed to work against hit&run-attacks (as a successful hit&run-attack is nothing less but a 'hit' against an escort), but it still doesn't work against boarding actions.

But neither do the ramming rules. Would that mean that ramming damage would also bypass reactive hull save?

How could you not consider each successful roll against the facing armour value of the enemy ship a 'hit'?

Because it never mentions hits? Unlike rules for lances, weapons batteries, nova cannons or bombers. Torpedoes and ramming only roll to damage.

And yes, I agree that the save works against torpedoes and ramming. I just hope that rules could use same keywords to mean same things. It can't be that hard to do.

Back to the H&R vs necrons: I can't see where the 4+ BFI save vs H&R would come from if the reactive hulls rule replaces normal BFI.

I think we (our campaign group) just have to consider reactive hull save to be BFI save for (relative) clarity. So our necron player gets to use his save (whether on BFI or not) whenever BFI save applies.

Niilo

[trynerror]

The 4+ BFI against the H&R comes from the official FAQ 1.54:

Brace For Impact may now also be used to protect against critical damage from any kind of H&R
attack but not critical damage caused by hits that were not saved against normally.

[nkalakos]

The 4+ BFI against the H&R comes from the official FAQ 1.54:

But you just said Necrons don't get normal BFI saves? Why would they get it in this case, but not others? It just makes no sense to me to replace the normal BFI rules for some types of damage/attack/hit, while retaining them for others.

But if you look at the game effect, the solution you offer shouldn't be too bad.

Niilo

[trynerror]

But you just said Necrons don't get normal BFI saves?

I didn´t say that, did I ? Just mentioned not to be sure about the 2+ or 4+. Maybe you mixed up my comment with EasyPreys 

[nkalakos]

But you just said Necrons don't get normal BFI saves?

I didn´t say that, did I ? Just mentioned not to be sure about the 2+ or 4+. Maybe you mixed up my comment with EasyPreys 

Oops, my mistake. I can't be expected to hold conversation with TWO people, can I? 

Niilo

[EasyPrey]

But you just said Necrons don't get normal BFI saves?

I said that Necrons don't get normal BFI-saves in addition to the BFI-save of 2+ from their Reactive Hull special rule.

Why would they get it in this case, but not others?

The Reactive Hulls special rule doesn't work against hit&run-attacks at all. So the Necrons do not get the (let's call it that way) 'bonus' on their BFI-save from Reactive Hulls if they're trying to save against hit&run-attacks, only the normal BFI-save of 4+ that everyone gets.

It just makes no sense to me to replace the normal BFI rules for some types of damage/attack/hit, while retaining them for others.

That's the special rule for you: It works against most types of damage, but not against all. Another example would be the holofield: It works against most types of damage, but not against all, as well.

[nkalakos]

It just makes no sense to me to replace the normal BFI rules for some types of damage/attack/hit, while retaining them for others.

That's the special rule for you: It works against most types of damage, but not against all. Another example would be the holofield: It works against most types of damage, but not against all, as well.

Yes, but holofield rules actually tell us when they work. Necron rules just can't be bothered. It appears that players just have to quess. In addition holofields are not really in conflict with other rules, unlike Necron reactive hull.

Rules themselves give no reason to remove normal BFI save from Necrons. If we make a new ruling (sensibly, IMO) that reactive hull replaces BFI then they will only get reactive hull saves and no BFI saves. Either way, we need to make up the rules when RH save works. I just don't think it is necessary to invent yet another rule that says that BFI suddenly applies anyway in some cases.

But I quess you have a point about special rules. I personally think that using a lot of special rules is just bad rules writing. BFG has very good, clean, core rules. With just a little forward planning and though, rules could have been written without most of the special rules with no loss of diversity. And the few special rules that were left could have been written clearly.

Niilo

[EasyPrey]

If we make a new ruling (sensibly, IMO) that reactive hull replaces BFI then they will only get reactive hull saves and no BFI saves.

Why would that be the case?
At the moment the Reactive Hulls-save replaces the BFI-save where the RH-special rule applies; in any other case it simply doesn't.
So when a Necron ship is on BFI and takes damage from firepower- or strength-based weapons, Nova cannon, bombers, torpedoes, mines, asteroid fields etc. the RH-special rule applies and thus you get to roll a save of 2+. If the Necron ship is hit by a successful hit&run attack the RH-special rule does not apply, so you take the ruling from the basic rules which is a 4+-save against hit&run-attacks. If the Necron ship takes damage from a boarding action the RH-special rule does not apply, but neither does the basic BFI, so you simply get no save at all.

The clarification I posted just said that Necrons do not get to save two times against the same point of damage; it did not say that the basic BFI-rules do not apply to the Necrons under any circumstances.
RH simply improves the BFI-save under certain circumstances, at the cost of reducing the armour value of the ship on BFI. It does not replace BFI.

[nkalakos]

If we make a new ruling (sensibly, IMO) that reactive hull replaces BFI then they will only get reactive hull saves and no BFI saves.

Why would that be the case?
At the moment the Reactive Hulls-save replaces the BFI-save where the RH-special rule applies; in any other case it simply doesn't.
So when a Necron ship is on BFI and takes damage from firepower- or strength-based weapons, Nova cannon, bombers, torpedoes, mines, asteroid fields etc. the RH-special rule applies and thus you get to roll a save of 2+. If the Necron ship is hit by a successful hit&run attack the RH-special rule does not apply, so you take the ruling from the basic rules which is a 4+-save against hit&run-attacks. If the Necron ship takes damage from a boarding action the RH-special rule does not apply, but neither does the basic BFI, so you simply get no save at all.

The clarification I posted just said that Necrons do not get to save two times against the same point of damage; it did not say that the basic BFI-rules do not apply to the Necrons under any circumstances.
RH simply improves the BFI-save under certain circumstances, at the cost of reducing the armour value of the ship on BFI. It does not replace BFI.

Isn't that what I said? Reactive hull save replaces BFI save. Then necrons get the BFI save for H&R anyway.

I feel that it would be easier to regard the reactive hull save as BFI save in the first place, since we have clear rules where that applies. Unlike for reactive hull saves. One simple ruling would remove two saves and clarify when save applies.

Niilo

[RayB HA]

Hi Guys,

The Necron Reactive Hull save is to be treated exactly as a BFI save, that is increased to a 2+ save when on BFI special orders.

On the too many rules point: I agree, Necrons have too many crazy rules, especially those horrible special VPs!

Cheers,

RayB HA