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Author Topic: Adepticon Fleet Compositions  (Read 13605 times)

Offline Mogwai_with_Mohawk

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2013, 03:59:16 PM »
The fair price of playing meatshield for the big boys.

This is exactly the way I see it.

After all they do have to slow down and cruise infront of the slower ships. In addition I think this rule should have some downsides, tradeoffs if you will, and should not deliver superpowers or an instant-win button. It is a valid option that has to be chosen and used carefully.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 04:29:26 PM by Mogwai_with_Mohawk »

Offline Armiger84

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Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2013, 08:25:53 PM »
The advantage of an escort over a capital ship in many cases is the ability to project it's full firepower while presenting a difficult target.  The disadvantage, given the preponderance of 6-8 hit 2 shield cruisers is, well, survivability.

I could see, for example, a player hiding 2 cobras in a squadron with a dictator, getting into ordnance range and then attaching the cobras to the dictator's base.  You're now launching a wave of 4 bombers and a combined wave (unless I missed a 2010 FAQ change here) of 10 torpedoes.  The target cruiser's owner is going to be struggling to make that nasty call unless they have a 6+ prow to soak the torps.

In this case it would make sense for the Dictator to "escort" the escorts into range and then mob up to launch a big combined wave.  I realize you could get substantially the same result with a 6-strong squadron of cobras or infidels, etc., and nearby attack craft waves, but the synergy offered here comes cheaper and with a much better chance of the cobras surviving perfectly intact until reaching strike range.

As to massing shields, that sounded neat until I had a "wait a minute!" moment.  A core BFG mechanic has always been that blast markers in base contact wipe out one shield per marker on every touching ship. In fact, the rules for massing turrets by being in base contact, when they originally came out, explicitly stated that shield losses would apply to every ship in base contact.  I can't possibly see a reason to break those rules by pushing escorts up against a capital ship's base, so I feel like that shouldn't (and hopefully isn't) be(ing) seriously considered.  No offense meant by this comment!

Really, I think the problem is deeper.  Either cruisers have too many hit points, escorts have too few, or there really aren't enough (or any aside from a handful of 4-hit CLs) vessels in between full ships of the line and fragile escorts.

And you know what? That might have been a deliberate thematic decision on the designers' parts.

If leadership checks didn't make it so easy to overlook the nearest target, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, in truth... (I'm almost certain I'm echoing at least one person in the thread by now)

EDIT:  I walked away to get some coffee and had an epiphany.

Hellebores & Eclipses.

The Hellebore is heavily overgunned for an escort, and as a consequence way too costly and easy of a target too.

The one time my eldar friend tried proxying them... Yeah. It was too easy.

That said, as a combined arms strike, 2 Hellebores squadroned with an Eclipse would actually be worth it, especially if the cruiser were out front soaking for the escorts.  On the turn you got in range, one lock-on order would get you firepower 4 batteries (vs capital ship, closing w. re-rolls, so shields down basically), 4 pulsar lances (w. re-rolls), 4 bombers and a combined wave (if you risked it) of 4 eldar torpedoes in the ordnance phase. Now THAT would really suck to be on the receiving end of, and the Eclipse could reasonably shepherd those flying VP sinks into range for the strike...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 08:50:03 PM by Armiger84 »
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Offline Dragon Lord

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2013, 09:32:05 PM »
If you wanted the 'cruiser escorting escorts' tactic to be viable a very simple way to do it would be to just apply a negative modifier to the leadership check to not target the closest thing if the thing you want to target instead is smaller.

Offline Jimmy Zimms

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2013, 10:21:32 PM »
EDIT:  I walked away to get some coffee and had an epiphany.

Hellebores & Eclipses.

The Hellebore is heavily overgunned for an escort, and as a consequence way too costly and easy of a target too.

The one time my eldar friend tried proxying them... Yeah. It was too easy.

That said, as a combined arms strike, 2 Hellebores squadroned with an Eclipse would actually be worth it, especially if the cruiser were out front soaking for the escorts.  On the turn you got in range, one lock-on order would get you firepower 4 batteries (vs capital ship, closing w. re-rolls, so shields down basically), 4 pulsar lances (w. re-rolls), 4 bombers and a combined wave (if you risked it) of 4 eldar torpedoes in the ordnance phase. Now THAT would really suck to be on the receiving end of, and the Eclipse could reasonably shepherd those flying VP sinks into range for the strike...

That above scenario sounds exactly how hunter killer packs should work to me actually! IIRC Andy had that great article on the perponderence of AC vs escorts where he said, and I paraphrase, "where are the packs of frigates waiting in in the shadows of the cruisers ready to pounce". I think we're onto something good here.
As we Imperials say, "The Emperor [class battleship] Protects..."

Offline Armiger84

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Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2013, 10:24:06 PM »
@Dragon Lord

See, that's kind of the problem though.  This started up as a "hey, wouldn't it be nice if escorts actually did what they were supposed to do an run interference for capital ships in BFG?"  The problem is, they're basically too fragile yet carry a reasonable amount of firepower, and any sort of scenario in which cruisers and escorts squadron together becomes, tactically, a means of getting glass cannons into their effective range by using a larger cruiser as ablative shields for the escorts.

My point in my post was to demonstrate reasonably nasty scenarios that would come out of squadroning escorts in with cruisers, despite the well-meaning original goal of trying to find a way to use the escorts as ablative shields for cruisers.

I'm beginning to think that the best solution isn't mixed squadrons but rather some greater penalty for the leadership check to shoot past the nearest target.  Give that roll a -1 or -2 modifier standard and now putting a squadron of escorts out in front of say an Avenger-class cruiser means that you'd actually have a decent chance of screening some hits for the bigger boat on the way in.  I mean, the opponent could still pass that targeting check, but reliably beating it would require focusing a significant amount of resources on a single target.

For that matter, reducing the chance of beating the target priority roll still means that you could hide a wolf pack behind a cruiser without opening up the possibility of ridonkulous ordnance salvos.  Retribution + 4 cobras would be what, 17 torpedoes in a single salvo?  The other good example would be an Emperor or a Nemesis with 4 escort carriers forming a single bomber wave, plus, in that instance the Leadership boost plus likely admiral onboard the BB pretty much defeats the escorts' ordnance difficulties.

I'm looking for the horribly broken combos to illustrate the issues with the combined escort/cap ship squadron idea ;)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 10:31:35 PM by Armiger84 »
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2013, 10:27:46 PM »
"When opting to shoot a target further than the closest, you must pass a leadership test at -2 if enemy escorts are a closer target, or else you must shoot at the closest target."

Offline Armiger84

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Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2013, 10:39:13 PM »
At the risk of spamming the heck out of the thread, AfterImageDan, I'd like to just see target priority swapping made harder.  I'd really want to test it in a few competitive games with a few different fleets before settling on applying a -1 or -2 modifier across the board.  I mean, -2 would screw Orks... but also represent their tendency to think short term without having to model extra rules into them anyway...

This way you could screen more effectively in both directions, ablative escorts covering cruisers and glass cannon nightmares stalking in the shadows of capital ships.  It would make maneuvering even more vital for starters...  Ok, I think I'm going to let some other folks chime in now.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 10:42:15 PM by Armiger84 »
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2013, 11:25:01 PM »
Well yeah, with a big universal rule change like this, we should definitely play-test it. Do you mean you would like it to be harder, regardless of escorts or not?

Offline Mogwai_with_Mohawk

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2013, 12:50:30 AM »
Hm, interesting idea @ Modifier.

Playtesting sounds reasonable too, especially with those representatives from the high/ low moral areas.

In contrary I am not really sure if this will make escorts more popular or useable. I personally just like to shoot them, as Armiger84 said: glass canons. It is fairly easy to bring a squadron down in numbers / threat potential and once you killed a handful its around the same points as a cruiser.

A modifier would therefore not really bother me and I guess escorts would become a somewhat preferred target for a lot of people. And when hords of escorts go extinct in every battle I guess their popularity would drop as people start looking for stability in a "world of massacres".  :-\ But that is just my point of view ...


P.s.

Retribution + 4 cobras would be what, 17 torpedoes in a single salvo? 
So far I assumed there would only be a ratio of 2 escorts for 1 capital ship?

My point in my post was to demonstrate reasonably nasty scenarios that would come out of squadroning escorts in with cruisers, despite the well-meaning original goal of trying to find a way to use the escorts as ablative shields for cruisers.
The basic idea behind the mixed squadrons was that people will also set up pure escort-squadrons as a countermeasure. Being fast and agile they could easily fly on the other side of a capital ship where the escorts of the mixed squadron are not covered but sitting ducks. Quite a big assumption but in a perfect world this would result in way more escorts.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 01:16:06 AM by Mogwai_with_Mohawk »

Offline Armiger84

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2013, 02:47:34 AM »
@Mogwai:

I realize I was wrong about the number of escorts for a battleship, that said, 13 torpedoes and the durability of a battleship is still reasonably threatening to me!

@Everyone:
(essay on BFG incoming, skip to the "- - -" if you want the quick & dirty)

I want to explain my reasoning in a clear and concise manner, but I realize it's going to require a little bit of background first.  So, the background:  My experience with escorts in BFG in my gaming group was that they were taken in minimal quantities to fill out a fleet list to a set points total by the fleets that had lots of capital ship options (Imperials, Chaos), and taken in greater quantities by the players forced to rely on them (Eldar, Orks).  Everyone generally acknowledged their fragility, and felt that their firepower and points cost didn't offset inevitable in-game attrition rates.  In the case of the Eldar player, he never even bothered to field one escort type because he felt it was much too expensive and obvious of a target (and was he ever right, my Carnage-class cruisers LOVED his escorts).  Escorts were used by the Imperials and Chaos fleets when they provided options difficult to obtain by other means.  For example, I used a lot of Infidels to generate torpedoes and bog down fighter screens, and one of my Imperial friends used a lot of firestorms because he wanted to load up on lances to supplement his cruisers.  Generally though, our experience was the same as most people on here seem to have had:  we barely used them mostly because when anyone took large number of escorts, it already was a "world of massacres."

I do want to see more escorts in games, and I've made a point to try to field more myself.  I just see some escorts as having rather limited uses.  Iconoclasts and Falchions come to mind, for example.  My Iconoclasts have spent more games proxying transports than they have actually engaging targets since the few times I used them as a screen for anything big, my opponents just fired past them.

My thinking is that it's too easy to select your targets in BFG.  Average ship leadership ranges 6-9, mostly 7-8.  So trying to roll less than or equal to a 7 or an 8 on 2 D6 generally isn't too bad; you'll manage it around 1/2 to 2/3 of the time (disclaimer:  I was an English & Government major in college.  I realize the more math-minded people in the room are wincing right now).  For highly trained crews (Space Marines, CSM, Eldar), leadership ranges 7-10.  Furthermore, my experience has demonstrated that players tend to put Leadership boosting characters (Admirals, Chaos Lords) on Battleships, Grand Cruisers, and Heavy/Battlecruisers, pairing high leadership scores with long-range weaponry.  The practical result is that target priority and rolling a leadership check to ignore a nearer target in favor of a more distant target has generally been pretty easy to accomplish regularly.

So, what does this have to do with escorts?  Well, the obvious answer is that I can't use my Iconoclasts to screen my Desolator when Mars-class Battlecruiser with the Nova Cannon can lob shells right past them.  Furthermore, I never had much trouble picking off my Eldar friend's Hemlocks early-game with my Carnages, even when he had his Aconites in the way.  I've never had much trouble picking off a flanking squadron of Cobras before they've made it into position for an attack run either.  My experience has been that even with average leadership scores, it is not difficult at all for a player to override the "shoot the nearest target" rule and apply his firepower to the most tactically beneficial target.

This thread started discussing fleet lists and evolved quickly into "ok, nobody takes Escorts."

Part of the problem IMO is that escorts don't actually escort with the current squadron rules which is really their purpose in the WW1/2 Naval analog. The other, as is pointed out, is that gunships are actually a separate beast that should work in hunter packs, especially vessels like Firestorms, and should be priced as such to encourage larger packs in fleet list construction. But I'm with Horizon, they can pack a huge punch and are always present when I game. :)

Jimmy's point is that nobody's actually using escorts to escort capital ships in the manner that they were used in the rough historical analogue for Battlefleet Gothic.

@AndrewChristlieb:
Upon thinking about it a bit more, maybe we need to invent a kind of 'super-grouping' for capital ships with escorts.... Since, as always, we have problems like, "Why can't my carrier reload ordnance while the other ships lock on?" or, "Bobby the Mauler braced for impact, it's lamer than a starving duck that I can't lock on with my other ships! If only they could use orders separately for some situations...." (No ducks were hurt in the making of this post)

I think that the BFG squadron rules (and their freedom) actually really suit combined squadrons because one has the freedom of protecting the capital's rear and being able to re-manoeuvre as needed with the escort's mobility. Also, changing the way capital squadrons work could make it easier to modify the Special Orders rules (if we so desired), e.g. to make add more fleet-like ones (rather than the very 'personal' ones we currently have).

Thinking Stone brought the suggestion that we combine capital ships and escorts in a squadron as a way of getting escorts more play, and this morphed into discussions about using escorts to soak hits for the capital ship(s) or using the capital ship(s) to soak hits for the escorts.  I personally don't like the idea of combined squadrons (Cruisers and Escorts) mostly because it pretty much moves immediately into the wound allocation shenanigans of WH40K 5th Edition (and by the False Emperor, I really started to wonder why I was even reading BOLS for a while there, but that's another story...), and I honestly feel like we can get the same effect without altering the game rules in that manner.

This is where my idea of reducing ships' leadership when attempting Target Priority rolls came into play.  My thinking is the average ship has a leadership value of 7-8, and the average ship with a commander onboard has a leadership of at least 8, often higher.  A 2D6 roll means that ship is successfully firing at whatever target it feels like close to 2/3 of the time, but if that leadership suffered a -2 modifier... things would get interesting.  At that point, most ships without commanders have a pretty good chance of failing 50% of the time to have the initiative to shoot at a more distant target.  This in turn will force those ships to focus on nearer threats.  The fleet's "Heroes" will still have at least a 50% chance of using their initiative and acting heroically, hitting the more tactically vital target over the obvious threat.

So how would this impact escorts?  Well, in a couple of ways:

1) A player could choose to use some squadrons of escorts as living shields for strategically vital capital ships.  A good example would be a Chaos player using Iconoclasts as a living shield for a battleship, or an Armageddon fleet's Falchions serving double duty as ablative shields and attack craft removal.

2) If juicy point-sink escorts with a lot of combat potential now have a decent chance of being protected by a moving screen of other escorts or cruisers, those one-hit glass cannons might actually be tempting to their owner to use.  For example, a squadron of Eldar Nightshade torpedo destroyers could actually run interference for a squadron of Eldar Hellebores, allowing those 75pt escorts to get in closer before they start taking concentrated fire.

3) My real hope is that forcing people to shoot more frequently at the nearest target will actually generate more tactical play.  If the manner in which you deploy your order of battle actually matters (read:  I don't just chuckle at the line cruisers in front of your Emperor and immediately point every 60cm lance and battery in my fleet at it), then we as admirals actually have to put some thought into who's going to be taking damage first, when to overlap positions in the gun line, and flanking forces finally start to matter!  I've used slaughters and small idolator squadrons for years in a wide sprint & arc maneuver to get serious firepower into people's backfield, and it works!  There just isn't really a major tactical incentive to keep ships screened or out of the game for a turn or two currently.

- - -

So, for everyone I lost way back in that massive essay, here's the executive summary.  My hope is that by making Target Priority rolls difficult to pass consistently, players will have the room needed to actually make ship deployment a meaningful choice.  This ideally would mean that a player could use a cheap squadron of escorts as a screen for a capital ship, or that a player could hide a big threat (6 cobras in massed torpedo salvo position?) behind a line cruiser, or even that cruisers could actually provide cover for other cruisers.  I feel like it's too easy to pick the most threatening target and wallop it with crushing amounts of fire, and simply single-target focus-fire your way through an enemy's fleet.  Heck, I'm guilty of it myself.

Edit:  I do realize that this might not necessarily increase the frequency with which people use escorts.  After all, old habits do die hard, and many of us BFG admirals are pretty seasoned and might be set in our ways.  That said, my theory is that forcing shooting at the nearest target most of the time would make positioning actually matter for more than just which guns you use to hit the other ship with, and that that in turn would render more strategies viable.  Kinda hoping that a simpler fix would get the same, or better results than a more complex and difficult to balance fix.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 02:58:44 AM by Armiger84 »
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Offline horizon

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2013, 05:03:00 AM »
Why all this in depth rule change? Especially regarding target priority. Also remember that it is best to keep things flowing within the existing ruleset (for what that's worth with the GW action...).

For me these changes should be incorporated:

1) Escorts must be mandatory per fleet. Eg. Per cruiser you must have (at least) 2 escorts. This is background wise most reasonable. However this is race dependant. For IN & Chaos 2 per 1 is fine. For Craftworld Eldar operating away from the Craftworld it should be 0 per 1. For Corsair Eldar 5 per 1 for example.

2) Squadrons: allow one escort squadron to squadron with 1 capital ship. Use the standard squadron rules (eg nearest target is being hit, so player can choose what he wants to be hit.). This flows best imo
2a) Should we allow super squadrons? eg 3 cruisers + 3 escort squadrons?


@ Amiger,
on the Hellebore a lot you say is true. It was poo. But it got a hefty point sink in the FAQ2010 rules -> 65pts. Aconite to 55pts.
Eldar MMS fixed it as well.

Oh...
Quote
This thread started discussing fleet lists and evolved quickly into "ok, nobody takes Escorts."
regular~1500pts:

Chaos: 9 escorts...
Imperial Navy: 9 escorts
Tau CPF: 9 escorts (or +2, depending on Emissary variant).
AdMech: 6 escorts
CWE: 3 or 4 escorts
Corsair Eldar: 15 escorts
Rogue Trader: in the works, but I reckon at least 9.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 05:11:18 AM by horizon »

Offline Armiger84

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2013, 05:25:42 AM »
Was debating making this an edit to my post, but I figured I'd leave my reasoning up.

@Horizon:
I really should read the Eldar MMS rules.  They're sitting on my hard drive, I just haven't gotten around to them yet.


Generally:
So I spent some time rolling dice.  -2 LD on target priority rolls sounded really good in my head, until I started logging results and really thought about what an average 5-6 or less on 2D6 looked like (it's been a while since playing my brother's Orks, and almost half his fleet was brute ramships... should give you a pretty good idea of the breadth of his Special Orders use).

I thought I had a simple & elegant solution, and realize now my idea would have simply taken the possiblity of target priority overrides out of the game more or less entirely.  I'm not even sure a -1 LD on target priority would be a good idea either, so heavy retrenchment on my part now that I've actually run some numbers.

I still don't entirely like the idea of mixing cruisers and escorts in a squadron, but I'll acknowledge that even my potential ordnance power combos aren't any worse than some of the things we can do now with only a little more effort.

I support the idea of making escorts mandatory and having an escort to capital ship ratio.  Bare minimum 1:1 for cruiser-heavy navies, different for raider navies.  Finding escorts might be a little tricky now that the metal's gone, but that's a discussion for another thread.
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2013, 05:55:13 AM »
@Horizon:
I really should read the Eldar MMS rules.  They're sitting on my hard drive, I just haven't gotten around to them yet.

Please do! They are fantastic on many levels.

Offline Mogwai_with_Mohawk

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2013, 10:41:33 AM »
Alright some big posts   :)

@ Armiger84:
Wanted to discuss some things about you text (you made some valid points there) but now that you dropped the overall-idea I will just throw in one thing:

What about a to-hit modifier when shooting through a squadron at a target behind them? (E.g. a column shift)

Would be a similar approach to the original one you had, just moral-independent. And it could probably even be combined with the mixed squadrons, if needed. But that was a rather spontanious idea so I am not yet sure if there a considerable downsides ...

Now back to the ugly business  ;D
Escorts must be mandatory per fleet.
Words like that make me shiver and I swear I heard a wolf howling in the distance   :-\. I mean forcing people to take cruisers for battlechruiser and battleships is one thing. The game is centered around cruisers, they are the mainstay of every fleet and they provide the most variety.

Escorts on the other hand offer only limited options and variety. Sometimes I even have the impression that for some races nobody gave a damn about them and they where just added somehow, for the sake of having escorts at all - well my thoughts are not that radical but I guess you get where I am going with this. Kinda like uninspired stopgaps.

Armiger84 made a very good point about this:
Escorts were used by the Imperials and Chaos fleets when they provided options difficult to obtain by other means.
Most certainly there are fleets that use escorts in bigger numbers already. But some don't, just like armiger said here. E.g. Imperium: Why? Just take a light cruiser and be done with it. In comparison to light cruisers escorts do not deliver any real benefits to the fleet and are therefore ignored.

Just to take this to a new level, I once discussed the idea of delivering benefits and my ideas - although to radical to really include them - were: chaos escorts with torpedoes, or imperial escorts with R 45 cm, escorts with fleet defense turrets, btw. that was around the same time as escorts with 2 hits came up. I know, I know its a bit over the top but that would be escorts that really provide a benefit and I would get them for their benefits without being forced to do so.

All in all: forcing people to take escorts should only be included if every race has decent options to choose from, at least simple 2 hit versions of a basic type for some stability. Please do not get me wrong here I want to see more escorts, but right now I fail to see the perspective. And forcing me to take them feels like shiting in my hands because they where cold  :-\.




« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 10:54:21 AM by Mogwai_with_Mohawk »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Adepticon Fleet Compositions
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2013, 01:12:00 PM »
Why escorts were not a mandatory choice from the start still baffles me, I imagine its because the designers assumed people wouldnt be douchbags and ignore them compleatly.

I would support a push to make them manditory but really I still think escorts should fulfill fleet requirements. Basically if your fleet requires you to field x cruisers for y bigger ships why cant a certain number of escorts also fulfill the requirement of a cruiser? Something like each escort squadron containing four or more models counts as a cruiser for fleet requirements. For other fleets it would need to be different. Tau may be for every six escorts you may field an additional Hero, Orks might be for every 10 escorts you may field an Ork battlekroozer or battleship, etc...
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