August 03, 2024, 01:08:59 PM

Author Topic: Real Legion Flagships  (Read 14107 times)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2013, 07:46:47 PM »
Second you cant judge scale in any of the pics of ships from HH collected visions so saying the rest are within scale of M41 is a statement without any basis in fact.  :o Try again. 8)


The background contains 2 objects of known size; the weapons platforms. You use them to scale the ship image.

??? I'm confused.

By what exactly?

You said you can't use an image to scale the size, then you say you can. That's why I'm confused.

Offline starfox1701

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2013, 09:01:35 PM »
No I said you could not use the HH Collected Visions pic to determine scale. The pic is used is from the as yet unreleased Graphic Novel "Macragge's Honour". The image clearly shows 2 of these

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Battlefleet-Gothic/ORBITAL-DEFENSE-WEAPONS-PLATFORMS-GOTHIC-PATTERN.html

A station of a known size. Using these objects you can make a determination of the warships scale. The Collected Vision pics don't provide you the  opportunity.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2013, 10:00:57 PM »
OK gotcha. So, what size do you think it is, and what sort of stats?

Offline Jimmy Zimms

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2013, 11:02:18 PM »
Just a note that not every model is necessarily to scale with each other. Also, not all artwork is correct :) They're a nice to look at representation of something that's blown up from the size of a molecule.

So the take away is to not get too caught up with pulling out the rulers and calipers and doing math and instead have fun with designing something to play with.

Hell, if we should be building stats for anything it should be based on this=> http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4039.msg30902#msg30902

:)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 11:04:33 PM by Jimmy Zimms »
As we Imperials say, "The Emperor [class battleship] Protects..."

Offline starfox1701

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2013, 02:13:23 AM »
OK gotcha. So, what size do you think it is, and what sort of stats?

Well these flagships are truly massive; almost fleets unto themselves.  Know no Fear says Macrage's Honour is 26kms long and I see no reason to not take Dan Abnet at his word here. ADB's accounts of the Lex and the Conqueror show ships easily of similar power and scale. The Red Tear also demonstrates the durability of these types of ships by crashing on Signus Prime and lifting off again under her own power. While these represent 3 different classes they share enough common abilities to make for a good foundation I think for doing individual vessel designs.

 It might be both more realistic and simpler to treat them like mobile starforts rather then overgrown battleships from a rules perspective. It allows for the tremendous firepower, the exceptional durability and can give ships of appropriately high cost.  It also makes them killable without making them quite as fragile as regular Battleships. of course there will have to be provision for damaging the core deck conventionally and destroyed sections wouldn't become asteroids. I would also consider stronger void shields too. All of them seam to carry huge numbers of troops and fighters so powerful landing bays are a must. Most of them seam also to have powerful broadside of weapons batterys and spinal laces.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 07:58:35 AM by starfox1701 »

Offline Talos

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2013, 06:38:15 PM »
I'm not going to lie, starfox; your coming off pretty strong. With a couple notable exceptions people that play traditional game are a pretty conservative lot, and pretty elitist one at that. So most people are a bit leery of change here.

So this is what they see: an interestingly titled post by some unheard of board member. Out of curiosity/interest, they check it out. Right out the gates your responses start sounding fairly conceited, with sarcastic undertones and a dash of condescension in the mix. It might have been a joke, but opening up posts with comments like that sets a tone and precedent, particularly when you are not well known to the community. Continuing our story, they swallow their pride and continue to read and answer you before arriving at what Sigoroth would probably quote and insert with the line: this. The ships you are creating are not necessary.

The ships you are proposing are obviously massively powerful and huge in scope. Since there is no model for them they would require scratch building, and I can say from personal experience not everyone has the skill to scratch build a model twice or more the size of an imperial battleship. This automatically makes people less than interested about the ship. Second problem is, as AndrewChristlieb so kindly mentioned, ships of that scale and power are difficult to integrate into almost any game and thus require specific scenarios, further limiting their use. Lastly the rules representation of what you are describing does not require new rules, just some reintegration.

TL;DR You are just making a ramillies class starfort with a different look. Just take that thing and work from there, finish it off by pricing appropriately. 

Offline starfox1701

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2013, 07:28:22 PM »
Is there any one else who wants chew my butt for my poor word choice in the beginning of the thread or can we get back to the exchange of ideas?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 07:30:31 PM by starfox1701 »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2013, 07:48:26 PM »
Usually, when you apologize forbeing received as impolite, it is usually over with very quickly. It would probably be a good idea to work that out with Seahawk so that the forum can see that you probably are actually a nice guy, and then they will feel more open to dialogue with you. I am interested to see where this discussion on these ships is going, but when people feel deterred, it's hard to get back to the exchange of ideas.  :D

Offline starfox1701

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2013, 08:05:46 PM »
Usually, when you apologize forbeing received as impolite, it is usually over with very quickly. It would probably be a good idea to work that out with Seahawk so that the forum can see that you probably are actually a nice guy, and then they will feel more open to dialogue with you. I am interested to see where this discussion on these ships is going, but when people feel deterred, it's hard to get back to the exchange of ideas.  :D

I thought I had but if a more formal apology is required I offer it sincerely.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2013, 08:14:18 PM »
Happy people :). I thknk everyone needs to chill, it seems like everyone but Seahawk is upset over a silly gaff.

I think your better off going for something along the lines of a very large battleship (single hull lots of hits) instead of trying to mod the Ramiles stats to fit. Something like:
Battleship/20 Speed/15cm Turns/45* Shields/6 Armor/5+ Turrets/6

Weapons should be suitably over the top. Think like 4 launch/ side 20 weapons @60cm/ side 6 dorsal lances @60cm 12 prow torpedoes and maybe another 10 weapons @60cm. While your at it tack on another 10 fixed rear weapons @30cm.

Whatever you go with I would shoot for 1000points on it.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2013, 08:21:11 PM »
As to being polite, no, you weren't. You rejected the first most helpful suggestion available in a snarky manner. Remember, the internet is the worst possible medium to try and use your version of tongue-in-cheek comments, as it will never come off the way you envision it.

I do believe that Seahawk said this, Andrew... I was simply trying to let Starfox know why people may not want to be discussing with him. The one thing that's worse than conflict is trying to polish it over and pretend it never happened. Regardless, it's over. On to ship design.  :P

Offline starfox1701

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2013, 04:55:10 AM »
I think your better off going for something along the lines of a very large battleship (single hull lots of hits) instead of trying to mod the Ramiles stats to fit. Something like:
Battleship/20 Speed/15cm Turns/45* Shields/6 Armor/5+ Turrets/6

Weapons should be suitably over the top. Think like 4 launch/ side 20 weapons @60cm/ side 6 dorsal lances @60cm 12 prow torpedoes and maybe another 10 weapons @60cm. While your at it tack on another 10 fixed rear weapons @30cm.

Whatever you go with I would shoot for 1000points on it.

So you think The Star Fort is OTT or just too complicated? If we go down this path some stuff needs uped and a few things will vary from ship to ship. In general I think more like

Battleship/24 Speed/10cm Turns/45* Shields/10 Armor/6+ front/5+ Turrets/10

Weapons
Port/Starboard   Batteries 20@ 60cm   Bays 8 fighters/bombers/dropships/boats
Prow   torpedoes 12   batteries or lances 10 or 5@ 60cm
Dorsal  lances 10@ 60cm
Vental  Bay 4 fighters/bombers/dropships/boats

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2013, 05:23:38 AM »
I'm not sure of the stats yet, but I think that there will have to be a special rule for turning because battleship class ships have to move 15cm before turning and this can't move 15cm. I think it would be appropriate to make it use CTNH to turn. I actually think Andrew's stats are looking really good, though I like yours too. I think I would just make it 15cm movement, 6 shields, 6 turrets.

Offline starfox1701

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2013, 05:48:28 AM »
I'd be more comfortable with lower shield and turret values if each arch had it's own shields and turrets. I could see going as low as 5 or 4 on the values it that's the case. Does forward movement carry over from one turn to the next?

Offline horizon

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Re: Real Legion Flagships
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2013, 06:04:44 AM »
I agree with Andrew, the amount of shields & turrets is to much. Not for the ship but for the game.
The Ramilies approach is indeed best:

eg: port has 5 shields / 4 turrets, starboard has that, etc

(Like Andrew also said ;) )