BFG:R Orks

[AndrewChristlieb]

So far as I know yes were still chugging along and any help is welcome! Im not sure where Khar is with this at the moment but hopefully we can see his ideas soon .

[Jofficer13]

Awesome, give me something to do and I'll do it

[Khar]

Why hello there, fellows. Terribly sorry for the long absence, turns out this dreaded Real Life can strike at any time

I attach modified Ork document taking into account (i think) every suggestion we had in the meantime.
Apart from the fleet list itself, only one matter seems to be problematic in the test -  Bad Moon upgrade for escorts. How do we proceed?

Of notable things:
a] Grunt and Brute have 90 turn now. It was a typo in the first place.
b] Hammer got cheaper.
c] lots of minor fixes and clarifications.

Also, I promise not to disappear anymore, things have been successfully sorted out now

[jaggedtoothgrin]

Well, you left off the fireship suggestion
and i still think that the option to trade in guns for boostas/rams would be nice (is it too complicated to have both trade and purchase options?)

I agree that the badmoon option seems to be particularly potent for escorts (or more accurately, the ravager)
maybe it should be 25 or 30 points? it does encourage large groups (which, given they cannot blob up their torps isnt such a benefit otherwise)

[Khar]

Ah, yes, fireship - I forgot to mention in the comments. It's not there because I wasn't sure what to do with it. If we use standard fire ship rules, than holyhell, this thing would need some restrictions because coupled with auto AAF, with cost around imperial fireship, you could firld a swarm of those to just devastate enemy fleet for next to no cost... So I'm open when it comes to ideas how to put this thing on. I was thinking of something that explodes when ramming, but that would be basically Brute.

As for the trade/purchase - I couldn't really work out how nor to make it mutually exclusive. BFG has no upgrades cheaper than 5 pts, and I'm just not sure if those 2 gunz are worth that much. If you guys think they are, then Grunt and Brute just need additinal option: Can remove its gunz for -5 pts. That way you can either use those points for Boostas, for Ram discount or to just have cheaper ship. But I'm concerned it would be a no brainer option, as these ships rarely have a chance to contribute with their firepower.

Badmoons:
Ravagers are hard to use in large squadrons as they tend to block each others' fire lanes, so when someone manages to use them properly, he deserves to be rewarded . Onslaughts however become very reliable source of firepower. It's not gamebreaking power, they're still not on level of, say, Aconites, but still, powerful. I think 30 pts for upgrade is a must.

[jaggedtoothgrin]

brainstorming fireship ideas:

firstly, I'd also probably keep them at 45 degree turns rather than 90, I'd think hard about if i was going to allow them access to soopa boosters. i mean, you are adding points to a throwaway formation, but its still a good boost
after that, a points hike should do it. Also, since they'd be escorts, they'd follow the requirements of being in squadrons of 3 or more, which given coherency rules, means they'd all explode at once.
might even need to deny them access to the clan upgrades (or, more accurately, the evil suns upgrade, as the others are all fairly unuseful) but i reckon its worth leaving them access to begin testing atleast

other ideas:
make them explode, not whenever the player wants, but only at the end of the move (easier to avoid, or miss target) or maybe whenever killed (makes them quite dangerous to each other and the rest of the orky fleet)
bring in a special rule that makes them test for AAF, but at a suitably orky bonus (again, from an epic perspective, orks have poor leadership, but get a bonus to it for suitably orky actions, in BFG, that translates to automatic AAF, but maybe just +2 LD for AAF and LOT orders would be more appropriate)


maybe the clans should have a "clan animosity" thing? seems like the bad moon upgrade is pretty obviously good for ravagers and onslaughts, and probably terrorships and a couple of the battleships, but the evil suns is pretty keen for brutes and grunts, while goffs are great for killkroozas
maybe if you make it so that taking the best upgrades for various classes makes it more expensive or less reliable? if you made it so that each additional clan represented beyond the first costs more money, you'd see people taking more "bad moon" fleets and more "evil suns" fleets, and less "bad moon and evil suns escorts with goff cruisers" fleets? this would result in optimised fleets being less common, while encouraging themed (but less well rounded) fleets? would this represent enough of a balancing measure?

[Jofficer13]

Little bit off of current topic, but who is finalizing the PDF version of the different books?

If that job isn't taken I could put my hand to it, I would just need the current versions and the revisions you smart people decide on and I could whip up some nice looking books.

Just looking to help.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I think Dan is still collecting everything but Im sure he wouldnt mind the help. Havent heard from him in a minute either but hes probably busy with life.

How about just letting them take standard fireships from the defenses? They cant go AAF so that would be nipped and theyre plenty cheap and powerful.

[horizon]

Dan is really really busy and asked if I could help out on organizing voting/closing the remaining things:

Tyranids (finalize vote)
Orks
Rogue Traders (Andrew & me are in the process of putting it into a word document)
Transports + Defences

And according Dan Inquisition has been finalized by one big vote last time around.

[Khar]

Arright.

A matter of fireship: Regardless of how exactly it should work, I think, after consideration, it should be in planetary defences section. Or ASC 2.0. Giving these to standard fleet could easily break the game. Also, less ships we create from scratch, more people will accept BFG:R .

So, apart from that, Orks are nearly done. First thing - Bad Moon upgrade for escorts goes up to 30 pts.

Second thing, fleet list:

First of all, due to some clans being superior for escorts, I'd give them following restriction: To take a clan upgrade anywhere, you need a capital ship with a character with said clan upgrade. So, to take Evil Sunz ramship squadron, you need at least an Evil Sunz Basha with Nob in the same fleet. That solves a problem of 'capitals from one clan, escorts from the other' lists.

So, that's my take on the fleet list:

CHARACTERS:
Primary:
Your fleet must have at least one of the characters from this list. You're allowed 1 per every 500 pts (or part of) of your fleet.
Kaptain, 40 pts.
Warboss, 40 pts.
Big Mek, 40 pts.
Every character comes with 1 re-roll as standard. He may buy additional 1 re-roll for +20 pts, or 2 for 40 pts.
Re-rolls are usable for character's own ship or any ship or squadron from the same Klan within 15 cm. Ships with no Klan may only use re-rolls from other ships with no Klan.
Sceondary:
0-5 Nobz, 20 pts.
Comes with 1 re-roll.
Due to the nature of character upgrades, every character is assigned to a ship in stage of list building.

Battleships:
Your fleet may contain 1 battleship per 2 cruisers in your fleet.
0-1 Deathdeala
0-1 Slamblasta
0-1 Kroolboy
0-1 Gorbag's Revenge

Battlecruisers:
Your fleet may contain 1 battlecruiser per 2 cruisers in your fleet
Hammer

Cruisers:
Your fleet may contain any number of cruisers
Kill
Terror
Basha

Escorts:
Your fleet may contain any number of escorts, taken in squadrons of 3-10
Onslaught
Ravager
Savage
Brute
Grunt

Defences:
Your fleet may contain any number of Roks. You may include 1 Space Hulk for every 1500 pts of your fleet.
Rok
Space Hulk

And that's it. Simple as that, no orced restrictions of original Klan list, no cruiser cap or people wanting to play capital heavy.

Opinions?

[blekinge]

Welcome back, Khar

It is very nice to hear about Ork updates again. Thanks for the new document, and thanks for accepting my suggestions.

About the Hammer price, I am not sure, as this will probably require some playtest. Still, it is one number, in a long list of numbers. Getting the clan rules right makes or breaks the list, the hammer price is not important.

The document seems close to finished. A few quick notes
The kustom force field rules in the beginning is repeated differently in each of the ship entries. I believe you just need to not repeat the rules for each of the ships.
The wording "or has its shields effected by some other influence" will probably need a FAQ. Does starting the turn in base contact with a blast marker qualify, even if I move away from it? Moving through blast markers?

Launch Bays: Equipped with Fighta bommas and Assault boats, If random, count highest value for
attack craft.

I thing that sentence needs to the end in the word "limit".

The Brute ramship still have 3 turrets. Is this intentional?

First of all, due to some clans being superior for escorts, I'd give them following restriction: To take a clan upgrade anywhere, you need a capital ship with a character with said clan upgrade. So, to take Evil Sunz ramship squadron, you need at least an Evil Sunz Basha with Nob in the same fleet. That solves a problem of 'capitals from one clan, escorts from the other' lists.

Okay, fair enough. That makes sense. A clan needs a leader, so to get a clan in your list, you need a character somewhere.

Due to the nature of character upgrades, every character is assigned to a ship in stage of list building.

Why is this nessesary? I do not see why this should be so.
It does reduce flexibility a lot.
As far as I recall, other fleets can roll for LD before assigning characters. If this is true, this rule is a serious nerf to the Kaptin character and some of the character upgrades.
Example.
I have 4 terros ships. I want to ensure that at least one of them have serious LD for reloading ordnance. I could take a  a Kaptin with grot riggers, but I would have to assign him to a ship, before rolling for LD. This might reduce his effective LD significantly, compared to the same character in any other fleet, where I could assign him to the ship that rolled highest.

Every character comes with 1 re-roll as standard. He may buy additional 1 re-roll for +20 pts, or 2 for 40 pts.
Re-rolls are usable for character's own ship or any ship or squadron from the same Klan within 15 cm. Ships with no Klan may only use re-rolls from other ships with no Klan.

Ouch  . That really hurts, like, deep inside.
All the other fleets have FLEET rerolls. Orks now have "my ship and some the other ships in kissing distance" rerolls. But they cost the same. Ork LD is not so overpowered that they need this nerf.
You cannot even use your reroll on your squadron (if your ship is not the leader of the squadron) if they are not of the same clan.
The reroll range limit is something I would accept as a general rules change for all races in BFG:R.

Perhaps a rule about making squadrons of ships from different clans, instead?

You could change this to
Re-rolls are usable for character's own ship or any ship or squadron from the same Klan.
Ships with no Klan may only use re-rolls from other ships with no Klan.

This way, it is a more complex way of saying "Your entire fleet can be of a clan. This will cost 20pts x (nr of capitol ships and escort squadrons)". And of course, the beginners will not realize this, so they might try to play several clans. Then we veterans can help them adjust their list and feel superior.

Sarcasm aside, I would not be opposed to the idea that your entire fleet could be of a specific clan, or you could play clanless. Perhaps we could say that you pay for clan upgrades if you want to mix, or you can mark the entire fleet with the same clan for free.

[Khar]

Always nice to hear your thoughts.

Hammer: At first, i thought that it being a non-unique vessel gives it enough incentive to be taken, even though Kroolboy was clearly better. However, I don't think  Hammer should be considered only after you already took Kroolboy - it should be a cheaper, slightly worse alternative. With current price drop it's still much more expensive than standard cruisers, but cheap enough to be viable alternative for battleships.

Kustom fields: Yep, my bad. Version from the beginning is how it should be, i just forgot to cut it from ship descriptions. FAQ  mighyt be needed, true, but it's quite simple - first time you would use 'shields' mechanic in any way. If something that happens references shields in any way in its rules, you roll for their value, nevermind if actual value is needed in that particular case or not. It's the simplest way to avoid any arguments.

Launch bays: Yup, limit is mising. Will be remedied

Brute: Must've missed it, should have 2.

Also, I think I forgot that all escorts may buy extra turret for +5 pts. That gives us potentially 4 turret ravagers and grunts, but as these turrets still hit only on 5+, it doesn't seem broken enough to take away the upgrade option. Opinions, though?

Character upgrades: Well... I assumed that character upgrades are bought for the certain ship, but, coming to think of it, having the linked only to a character gives the fleet a bit more flexibility while not really breaking anything. You're right, characters, together with their upgrades, should be assigned as the battle starts. Any objections on this?

Re-rolls: In original Klan list, Orks had no access to the fleet re-rolls. Character re-rolls could've been used only for particular characters' ships. Having it affect only Klan vessels makes it still a bit more flexible. Youre'right, range will go away, though. Re-rolls may be used for any vessels from the same Klan.
Also, i think that ships from one Klan should squadron only with ships from the same Klan (or Klanless). Actually, Klanless ships could get to use and give re-rolls from/to anybody... There's no other incentive aside from cost to take Klanless ships.

That way, when playing single Klan, in practice you have access to lots and lots of fleet re-rolls, while when taking multi Klan list you get to pick and choose your bonuses, but re-rolls are more limited, as are your squadroning options. I just can't see Orks from different Klans tolerating each other enough to form one squadron .

Summing up, Klan interaction rules:
- Re-rolls may be used for any ships from the same Klan (or Klanless).

- Klanless re-rolls may be used by anybody.

-You can only squadron ships from a single Klan (Klanless can squadron with anyone).

- You need a character on a Klan ship to take any other ships from that Klan.

- Other than that, you're free to choose your fleet as you please

What do you think of that?

[jaggedtoothgrin]

that resolves basically all the complaints i was going to make about the rerolls and such.

I like the idea of a range for rerolls. it seems like a neat idea, but it also seems like a massive nerf to the fleet. maybe allow the 15cm bubble for non-klan rerolls? (as a general rule, a squadron of goff brutes are unlikely to be interested in what a badmoon kapitan is going to say, but if he and his big ship are really close nearby, they might decide to go along with it for now)

I also quite like the idea of the old animosity rules from fantasy and to a lesser extent, 40k, in particular, the part where nobs turn on their squadrons to get them to "get in line"
I like the image of the nobz vessel shooting one of its escorts to "motivate" the others.
perhaps say that orks can attempt to reroll their reroll, but the character automatically deals 1DC to the formation that failed?

As to fireships, my theory is that as defences, they are an awkward combination of "too good" and "too bad"
which is to say, they're not over or undercosted, so much as they're so cheap that taking them seems like a no-brainer. Any fleet that could take them, but especially orks, or any other fleet that needs ordinance/escort defence, would be mad not to take a bunch at that price (most likely to leave in the back field to clear escorts/ordinance that is threatening moreso than their intended "rush the enemy and blow up" role, though obviously that would be at the forefront of the players mind, to take any chance they get at it)
If they were better (access to real leadership, auto AAF and potential upgrades) but also priced with that into consideration, it would no longer be such an "will take them anytime i can get them" decision, and more of a tactical one, because they are still suicide troops, and using them is still giving your enemy VP, but now its a sizable enough portion of your VP and points, that you arent quite as willing to throw them at every little thing, and they mightnt fit your fleet plan, so might not get taken.
as it stands, any fleet i built with access to the ships would buy atleast 5 of them immediately, build the rest of my fleet, and fill any excess points at the end with them. if they were twice as expensive, and bought in formations, I'd be much less likely to use them all the time. 6 free floating explosions is much more useful than 3 more maneuverable, but restricted by formation explosions

they'd need playtesting, for sure, but I think they're a good idea.

also, what is the point of a basha? given that its not faster than the other cruisers, and seems to point for point be less shooty and definitely less able to rush over and board things, I dont really understand what purpose they serve, except perhaps a slightly cheaper entry point for battleships
every time i look at them, my brain says "just take a real cruiser instead" or "look at all those fireships you could be buying" XD

[Khar]

Fireships: I'll make some tests in next games maybe... until then, no opinion in particular

Re-rolls: Giving universal re-rolls in short range lessens incentive to ever take non klan ships. I'm not sure, but for simplicity's sake I think we should just forbid using re-rolls between klans.

Animosity: We just saved orks from being nigh unplayable due to the randomness. Giving them any additional wacky rules might push them back in that direction. However, we might consider it in some simple form. Like you say, or maybe, Orks may attempt to re-roll a re-roll but by doing so inflict hit&run against themselves.

Basha:
Yeah, that ship was always problematic... As of now, I see two uses: First - give it a clan you need on your escorts but not on capitals, put a nob on it, you now have access to escorts from your desired Klan. use basha itself to attract fire, ram when possible and board smaller or crippled vessels if it manages to catch any.
Second: Give it Klaws and if you feel generous, boostas. use as cheap Tyranid claw-cruiser - basically a huge missile meant to distract the fleet and shut down enemy's valuable ship.
Works best when you want Evil Sunz or Goff escorts - now you may have both uses at once

Yeah, it's not much, but it's still two uses more than it had in previous incarnation

[Khar]

So, guys, Orks. Should we call them good enough and put together final document now?