BFG:R Orks

[afterimagedan]

Khar and Andrew, you guys seem to be the best authorities here on Orks. I trust you guys.

[Markconz]

Torpedoes -> Short Burn Torpedoes normal torpedos.

Good.

Gunz now not random

So D6 becomes 4? Can randomness be preserved on any of these? E.g. maybe an extra strength random factor is added to prow guns on kroozers/battleships? This would give ork ships bit of a boost and also keep some unreliability.

Torpedoes -> half random (D3+3 sort of thing)

If you have to roll a dice anyway, why not just keep it exactly how it is and so keep the unreliability?

Turrets -> Random Not random, they hit on 5+. 4 base on Battleships, 3 base on Kroozers [including lite kroozers], 2 on escorts.

What about ravagers which have two turrets compared to one on the other escorts and kroozers at present? Shouldn't they get three or four now then?

Heavy Gunz -> Heavy guns do not get the left column shift on the gunnery
table to close range but inflict 2 damage per hit. When at range over 15 cm, they get additional right shift on the gunnery table.

Heavy guns have always been difficult to use, so shouldn't they be nastier if you actually get close enough to use them - and thus have the left column shift?

[Khar]

@ Gunz randomness - I think SOME degree of randomness wouldn't hurt anyone, but it should be on levels varying between strong and vary strong. With no option for weak. Alternatively - gunz stop being random after you lock-on.

OR [this came to me right at this moment, so it's completely untested and not even thought through] what if gunz [and big gunz too?] would become random [-1d6 strength, for example] when ship is on special orders [other than lock on]? Instead of halving them? That would make Orks dangerously unpredictable for the enemy. In the 'it's braced, but I can't count on it being useless' sort of way. This is Orky, this is random, and is, in most cases, not a disadvantage making planning impossible. It makes life of an opponent harder though, because Ork randomness suddenly makes HIS plans harder to execute. You have your chance to call this bad idea now, because in process of writing it I've managed to convince myself it's brilliant!


@half random torpedos - difference between d3+3 and d6 is crucial - you can be ure you'll get something out of this ship. When you reload ordnance [especially on the cruiser] only to roll 1 on the salvo strength, you basically wasted your order, and possibly a turn. d3+3 makes torpedoes always viable, with some randomness still involved.

@turrets. True, I forgoth Ravagers have 1 turret more. 3 for them, then. I'm not sure if fleet should still have access to an additional turret upgrade, though. Needs testing if potential 4 turrets hitting on 5+ isn't too strong on a cruiser. Though today, 3 turret cruisers were able to not immediately fall apart against Tau. It didn't seem too strong.

@heavy gunz: So: range 30, left shift for close range as normal, right shift if over 15?

[Markconz]

@ Gunz randomness - I think SOME degree of randomness wouldn't hurt anyone, but it should be on levels varying between strong and vary strong. With no option for weak. Alternatively - gunz stop being random after you lock-on.

OR [this came to me right at this moment, so it's completely untested and not even thought through] what if gunz [and big gunz too?] would become random [-1d6 strength, for example] when ship is on special orders [other than lock on]? Instead of halving them? That would make Orks dangerously unpredictable for the enemy. In the 'it's braced, but I can't count on it being useless' sort of way. This is Orky, this is random, and is, in most cases, not a disadvantage making planning impossible. It makes life of an opponent harder though, because Ork randomness suddenly makes HIS plans harder to execute. You have your chance to call this bad idea now, because in process of writing it I've managed to convince myself it's brilliant!

Yes has some merit, but the implementation needs some pondering. I don't think you should be able to get more firepower on special orders than on no orders. 

You could in effect replace each D6 (or 4FP for heavy guns) with D3+1, and note that you always count max on normal orders or lock on, otherwise you have to roll.  However then you've got the other firepower that  would not be halved (e.g. +2 on cruiser prow, +4 L/R and +6 Prow on Battleship, which is quite a lot on the battleship in particular). Still could perhaps playtest this as it is a nice effect - orks always find time for shooting no matter what else they are supposed to be doing... hence their poor leadership.

@half random torpedos - difference between d3+3 and d6 is crucial - you can be ure you'll get something out of this ship. When you reload ordnance [especially on the cruiser] only to roll 1 on the salvo strength, you basically wasted your order, and possibly a turn. d3+3 makes torpedoes always viable, with some randomness still involved.

Buuut... still I wonder that surely the whole point of playing orks that you can't be sure, that you can't rely on them?! Yes you might roll a bunch of 1's, but another time you might shoot 36 torpedoes with your ravagers and it will be the most glorious occasion to be remembered for ever and ever...  Orks are about spectacular failures and outrageous successes.... dangerously unpredictable is the character. Taking that away from them, and you might as well play a boring Imperial fleet.

In good game systems like Epic and BFG, races are defined as much by what they cannot do as by what they can, and by their flaws as well as their strengths. This was a point Jervis and others repeatedly made and why their games are so characterful. I'm worried that the orks will lose too much character if this reliability is added.  Keep the krazy!! If people want a reliable fleet there are plenty of others to choose from after all.

@turrets. True, I forgoth Ravagers have 1 turret more. 3 for them, then. I'm not sure if fleet should still have access to an additional turret upgrade, though. Needs testing if potential 4 turrets hitting on 5+ isn't too strong on a cruiser. Though today, 3 turret cruisers were able to not immediately fall apart against Tau. It didn't seem too strong.

Ok will trial them at 3 turrets. I'm not sure why they got 2 and all the others 1 in the original rules(?).

@heavy gunz: So: range 30, left shift for close range as normal, right shift if over 15?

Will try this. I'm a little concerned that 30cm guns might still be a bit overpowered though to be honest...

[AndrewChristlieb]

How about having Gunz as random still, but slightly boosted as in Plaxor's BFG-R version and add in that when on lock on they count as full power? Something like d6+6 prow and d6+4 on the port/starboard of the Kill Kroozer. That would boost their reliability under orders and retain the randomness. 12 locked on weapons at 45cm is nothing to sneeze at either.

[afterimagedan]

Markconz, does it not bother you that you have just about double the time rolling dice than other fleets? Every fleets has unpredictability in dice rolling. The game is built around that. Orks with all this randomness is just time wasting. The concept of big guns make for unpredictable built into the first die roll. If it hits, of hits hard. If not, nothing. That's the kind of unpredictability I think is fitting for Orks in this sort of game where we are representing hundreds of men firing a torpedo coming from up the command chain or tons of people with just one die roll. Why not try to find a way to keep the random feel while reducing the dice rolling? I think it can be done.

[Markconz]

Markconz, does it not bother you that you have just about double the time rolling dice than other fleets? Every fleets has unpredictability in dice rolling. The game is built around that. Orks with all this randomness is just time wasting. The concept of big guns make for unpredictable built into the first die roll. If it hits, of hits hard. If not, nothing. That's the kind of unpredictability I think is fitting for Orks in this sort of game where we are representing hundreds of men firing a torpedo coming from up the command chain or tons of people with just one die roll. Why not try to find a way to keep the random feel while reducing the dice rolling? I think it can be done.

Yes the time factor is definitely a worthwhile reason for ditching it I think (in addition to the big gunz inherent unpredictability). Hence why I AM ok with markedly reducing it. As I suggested, maybe severely restrict it to just being an extra bonus to guns on front of capital ships (because orks should be charging the enemy if their being orky and they'd surely put most guns there). I.e replace all D6 gun values on all ork ships with 4, but then also add a +D6 roll to prow guns of kroozers and battleships, as they are generally regarded as under-gunned (Terrors not needed probably?). That's a bit of randomness and excitement preserved, rolling for firepower is cut down an enormous amount, and kroozers get a needed boost.

Separate to this though, is that if you are going to roll anyway for the torpedoes (and I think that is more acceptable for ordinance as it is far more limited than guns) then why not just keep them as they are - which also helps make up for the other loss of randomness?

[afterimagedan]

I think that's a great balance and compromise. No random weapon batteries except front weapon batteries on capital ships. Sounds good.

As far as torpedoes, I'm not sure which roll you are referring to. You roll once to reload and that's it. Its another roll to determine how many are fired for Orks. Either way, rolling for random ordnance isn't so bad because it's nothing like every weapon battery having to be rolled.

[Nex]

Thinking a little about a "gubbinz" list so you can make all your ships a little bit different if you want, perhaps that could also be a way to cover the randomness.

A "more dakka" upgrade representing a Kaptain having some extra guns bolted onto his ship in a rather haphazard fashion giving +d6 to a specific battery, or all batteries I guess, depending on the cost of the upgrade.


Other potential gubbinz could be things like "speshul fuel" that lets you reroll all ahead full dice but might wreck your engine, "tuff shieldz" an extra shield?, "extra protekty bits" increase armour or force a reroll to a point of damage that kind of thing but reduced gun strength as the plates cover gun ports ...

As Khar said details of gubbinz would probably be best discussed later, but I just felt it had potential to be used to solve the random vs not random issue a little.

[Armiger84]

I'll admit, I kinda like the idea of Ork cruisers and escorts being "build your own" in the style of Tyrands and support that suggestion.  You could easily cap things to 0-1 sets of Port/Stbd Launch Bays, 0-1 sets of prow torpedoes, etc. to keep things balanced if need be.

Granted, between Gunz, Heavy Gunz, Torpedoes, and Hangars you can only make so many combos, but it might be worth it to add Improved Thrusters as an upgrade option, or maybe tighter turning (90*) too (either one as a 0-1 either/or though).  Thinking of an all Heavy Gunz version of the Avenger CG.  Modular cruisers/escorts would easily cover everything but Brute Ramships.

I feel like Orks need a light cruiser option as well...

I also like the idea of doing Tau-style L/F, R/F batteries, but I realize that could make for some truly overpowered salvos without a total design overhaul, so for now my vote is for build-your-own.

[Nex]

The build your own style is one I really want too but I'm sure there are a lot of Ork players out there who for the most part like the current rules and would only like to see small tweaks.

In my head I think I would like to see a solid BFG:R Orks list which we could then base some kind of Loota or Scrap fleet off which would contain the "build your own" ship.

The real problem with the "build your own" deal is that some people who are more focused on winning than character might just pick all the best options, fully balancing things that would probably take a while, meanwhile a variant list with a "try not to be an arse or noone will play you" clause has a bit more wiggle room.

[Armiger84]

You've got a good point, Nex, and to be honest I was thinking mostly from the goofy-but-brutal approach I have for Orks without thought for possible abuse.

Also... Now that I've actually looked at the draft rules (I -really- should do that before chiming in -_-), most if my concerns in terms of mixing things up are already addressed, aside from maybe adding more variant options to the light cruiser hull.

I will say that I approve of the suggestion to standardize battery strength for Gunz and cut down on the torpedo randomness a little.  Also, should the Space Hulk's lance battery change to Zzap Gunz?  At first I thought that might be more fluffy, but now I realize that'll harm the hulk's maneuvering pretty seriously.

[Markconz]

The build your own style is one I really want too but I'm sure there are a lot of Ork players out there who for the most part like the current rules and would only like to see small tweaks.
...

The real problem with the "build your own" deal is that some people who are more focused on winning than character might just pick all the best options, fully balancing things that would probably take a while...

Yes I think for now finishing the basic list for BFG-R with a few minimal tweaks  should be the focus -  then later a "build your own" can be something to play around with and give some extensive testing.

[Markconz]

I think that's a great balance and compromise. No random weapon batteries except front weapon batteries on capital ships. Sounds good.

As far as torpedoes, I'm not sure which roll you are referring to. You roll once to reload and that's it. Its another roll to determine how many are fired for Orks. Either way, rolling for random ordnance isn't so bad because it's nothing like every weapon battery having to be rolled.

Cool. For torpedoes I was referring to the proposed D3+'X'  (rather than current D6+'X') roll for numbers of torpedoes. I just think that keeping the D6 rolls is probably  fine as it doesn't take any more time to roll than D3 randomisation and it keeps more of the orks original high unpredictability. This also fits with what I think is a very wise revision principle the Epic community had - that to balance forces and get buy in from the broader player community, changes should be as minimal as possible to the original rules.

Anyway tomorrows game I will try:

Gunz batteries: replace all the D6 rolls with 4 FP. Add +D6 to prow gun batteries of all Kroozers and Battleships.
Heavy Gunz: 30cm range, but extra right column shift if range over 15cm.
Torpedoes: no change.
Launch Bays: no change.
Turrets: Hit on 5+. 4 per Battleship. 3 per Cruiser. 3 per Ravager. 2 per Onslaught, Savage, Brute.

[Markconz]

Ok so played a randomly generated Surprise Attack with orks on defensive.

Lists
1 Deathdeala, Warlord
2 Kill Kroozers, mega nobz
2 Terror Ships
5 Ravagers
5 Rams
5 Rams

Vs Chaos with
1 Desolator, Warlord
2 Devastation
2 Carnage
2 Murder

Chaos did some heavy damage early on but I dragged it back, until it came down to a final boarding action between the two battleships at the end.  First round of the boarding was a draw, second round I won on a 6 to 1 die roll. Everything else except 4 ramships was dead... barring a cruiser disengaged on each side... So pretty much a bloody stalemate barring the last die roll off. The chaos could have perhaps kept their distance earlier on being mostly an abeam fleet, but on the other hand they were trying to do damage to ships on standby and out of position so closed quickly, and then got caught by some orks 30cm range fire and ordinance, as the orks came to alert status perhaps more quickly than expected given I hadn't bothered to buy rerolls.

I thought the changes worked well, didn't make a great deal of difference in this game bar an extra dice here and there from heavy guns actually being able to fire, doing two damage once in the game at >15cm. The Chaos player was maybe a bit more hesistant to launch bombers given the turret changes, but he didn't think they made that much difference .  Converting almost all the guns D6 to 4  sped things up nicely, and the extra D6 on the kill kroozers and battleship prow guns seemed appropriate.