BFG:R Light Cruisers

[AndrewChristlieb]

Maybe with a single lance and drop the price, 2 lance and 2 torp is a bit heavy compared to 2 weps and 2 torp.

[Bessemer]

@talos: Sold!

[afterimagedan]

Yes, I prefer that Defiant the most. I think it needs to be 2 lances because 1 lance can only take a shield down. It can't pair with its other weapons well and makes it necessarily a support ship. The 2 lance version can actually do some damage by itself to smaller ships. With 2 lances and 2 torps, the prow will be slightly more points than a regular Dauntless. Compared to the Dauntless, it will be slower but more durable, slightly heftier prow but with no redundancy within it's armament (worse).

[horizon]

Haha, back to the Armada profile...
....but 2 lances is even more prow heavy then 4 weapon batteries....

Being onboxious: why can't the other voss prows have 2 lances? 

[afterimagedan]

Armada profile, yes please. 

[Sigoroth]

In the Admech list the BFG:R Defiant is pretty useful as an alpha striker: a three ship squadron could do a LO lance strike at Str 9 w/rerolls, a Str 6 torpedo volley combined with a Str 6 AC wave. Pretty dangerous stuff. To reiterate, the BFG:R version has the same hull, speed, prow, turrets and shields as ours, but where it differentiates is in weaponry. It maintains the two launch bays, but also has two lances and a 2 strength torpedo salvo. It is priced at 130pts.

This fits the fluff more accurately than any version presented thus far; people start thinking stupid crap about the Voss Triumverate instead of sticking to the hard truth. The so called "Voss" hull is characterized by two mechanical differences:

1) Reinforced prow like a full cruiser.
2) A 2 Str torpedo salvo. In RT there is even a Voss escort with a 2 str salvo.

If we took the BFG:R profile at 130pts would people be happy? It would change it's role from the support one everyone seems to be advocating but it would be a hella of a lot more dangerous and effective.

Anyone other than me like this profile?

Nope, hate this profile. Why does this carrier need such strong guns? Why don't the other two variants use prow lances? Are you saying that they wouldn't benefit from them? How is having lances fluffy? It "lack(s) any guns for self defence".

Let's say that we gave it 4 launch bays (2F/2B or whatever), what would the prow armament be? It'd be identical to the others, right? So now that we're dropping the launchbays to 2 why does it need more prow guns? Just drop its price. This thing is supposed to be a carrier right? At 4 AC this is obvious, but at 2 AC the proportion of AC to other weaponry just marginally makes it a carrier. Increasing the guns any further drops its AC to less than 50% of its total firepower. This isn't necessarily critical, but does make it harder to call a "carrier".

The prow/dorsal thing isn't an issue. These should be the same as the other two. It might be possible to ditch the prow guns for more torps, since this isn't all that much more powerful than the 2WB (in and of itself) and it a case could be made for why the other two ships wouldn't go that route (preferring more guns to add to their broadside).

Only problem with that is that again it'd have the same weight of fire in its torps as it does in AC as well as having zero direct fire capability.

So, ignoring that, we have the option of strength 2 AC for cheap, with some possible upsides such as a-boats or +1 reload, etc OR strength 4 AC for expensive with downsides, such as -1 to reload, severe composition restrictions, etc.

My most heartfelt preferred option is to delete this ship. Otherwise I'm for identical prow/dorsal, 2AC, cheap.

[BaronIveagh]

Hey, whack a 0 per 1000 pts or part thereof restriction on it and I'm good with it. No, I lied, I still object to it.

Sig, you'd object to anything I proposed so sorry if no one takes your objection to this particularly seriously.

Some perspective

Defiant @ 150pts with 4lb?
6 of them : 900pts
+ 1 Emperor + fa : 1295pts
+ 1 more Defiant: 1445pts
re-rolls

That is 7*4 + 8 = 36 launch bays
With only Defiants it could be: 9 Defiants = 9 * 4 = 36, so that doesn't change a bit.

And then I bust you for having an illegal list.  Since you have +1 Defiants more than is allowed at 1500 points.  So that's only 32 lbs.


I've sent another (IMHO less) workable change to Vaaish to bounce it off him, but let me pop it up here as well:

2 per 500

3 lbs (which gives it enough lbs to be useful in pairs but avoids stepping on Dictator's toes too much)

25 cm

str 4 torp.

130

+5 all around


That makes it weak on the line, but powerful ranged support, able to keep away a bit, and worth taking in pairs.



(And Yes, I forgot it was in the Bastions fleet list.  It's also technically in the Maelstrom fleet lists too, but no one talks about that.)

[horizon]

So then the Emperor + Defiant list still has 36lb. Or...?


Aside of the 3lb, which I'll need to ponder on (because what will crippled and braced do to this?).

25cm speed: no, all Voss CL should be equal in that regard (same argument as prow then), plus the fact carriers are same speed or slower (battleships) generally seen.
And the others points (4 torps), no prow armour, make it even further away from the general Voss design.
One bit could be slipped but not so many.

[BaronIveagh]

So then the Emperor + Defiant list still has 36lb. Or...?

No, it'd have 32 below 2k points.  Remember at 1500 you have a max of 6 Defiants.  You were taking a 7th one.

Aside of the 3lb, which I'll need to ponder on (because what will crippled and braced do to this?).

IIRC you round up a penalty on an odd number.  So braced/crippled it's be 1, or the same as it is now.

25cm speed: no, all Voss CL should be equal in that regard (same argument as prow then), plus the fact carriers are same speed or slower (battleships) generally seen.
And the others points (4 torps), no prow armour, make it even further away from the general Voss design.
One bit could be slipped but not so many.

Endurance and Endeavor are both line ships, Defiant is a support craft.  Logically speaking, it would not be like the other two.  It has to be balanced differently to function, particularly since it would be primaried a LOT, as it can be eliminated a lot more easily than a Dictator.  Being faster makes that harder than being slow and well armored, so, yes your right it does move away from the other Voss, but I plead 'Game Balance'.

[Sigoroth]

IIRC you round up a penalty on an odd number.  So braced/crippled it's be 1, or the same as it is now.

You round up after the penalty, so 3/2 = 2. Bracing doesn't halve ordnance, btw, just crippling.

Endurance and Endeavor are both line ships, Defiant is a support craft.  Logically speaking, it would not be like the other two.  It has to be balanced differently to function, particularly since it would be primaried a LOT, as it can be eliminated a lot more easily than a Dictator.  Being faster makes that harder than being slow and well armored, so, yes your right it does move away from the other Voss, but I plead 'Game Balance'.

The Defiant is also a line ship, just like the Dictator. If we were talking a support CVL with 25cm speed and a 5+ prow it'd be based off the Dauntless, not the Endeavour.

[Vaaish]

From the armada entry it would seem that one defiant is very defensive while three deviants make a fair offensive force. I could see them in the 120 to 130 range that puts it at around 360-90 for three.

[BaronIveagh]

You round up after the penalty, so 3/2 = 2. Bracing doesn't halve ordnance, btw, just crippling.

Sorry, wrote that before coffee.

The Defiant is also a line ship, just like the Dictator. If we were talking a support CVL with 25cm speed and a 5+ prow it'd be based off the Dauntless, not the Endeavour.

It was originally balanced as a 25cm ship, however, when it was still Enforcer.

[horizon]

Well, the Enforcer hasn't been made official for a reason.

[BaronIveagh]

Well, the Enforcer hasn't been made official for a reason.

Eh.... yeah, but that had more to do with politics (both corporate and on this board) than game balance.

IF we have objections to this, let's start with objections to balance and then move on to 'theme'.

[AndrewChristlieb]

You round up after the penalty, so 3/2 = 2. Bracing doesn't halve ordnance, btw, just crippling.

When did they change bracing so it doesnt halve ordinance was this a FAQ thing?

2 per 500

3 lbs (which gives it enough lbs to be useful in pairs but avoids stepping on Dictator's toes too much)

25 cm

str 4 torp.

130

+5 all around

Fast cheap attack carrier? Ok but is this a Defiant? No. Hum that seems to have cleared up the issue... I still have not seen anything to represent the Defiant having a different hull than the Endurance.

1/500

Endeavor base hull

4 unrestricted launch

2 Torpedoes

0 Weapons

0 Lances

Thats really about the only way I can see this getting a reasonable amount of Launch, not having some silly rules, and staying close to fluff.

Alternativly

Cheap, like 100 pts.

2/500

base hull

2 Launch

2 Lances or 2 Torpedoes/ Weapons batteries

no Torp and lances

If thats too much of a "Why cant the otherxs take blah blah blah..." give them all the option to swap prow lances for weapons/ torps.