BFG:R Light Cruisers

[afterimagedan]

Also, at 150pts, the comparison to Dictator is less drastic. 4 Defiants vs 3 Dictators. The Defiants have 4 more LC but 10 less torps. Many more hit points and more turret massing capability, but less shielded. More angle on their wbs but much less FP.

[Vaaish]

I think the bigger point that we are all missing here is what, in gameplay terms, are the various fleets designed to represent and will our changes shift that.

Second, I would not throw out horizons warning as nonchalantly as you seem to be doing. He and sig probably have the most in depth and continuous gameplay experience encompassing most of the fleets out there of everyone talking right now. I have to say I find it rather off putting that we've moved back to the idea of a 4ac cl. Yes, noted, you can do the same with escort carriers in theory, but they are heavily restricted in use since Escort carriers can only be taken as replacements to transports and it is mentioned they are far from ideal. Give the poor defiant a tad more firepower and keep the 2ac.

[BaronIveagh]

but they are heavily restricted in use since Escort carriers can only be taken as replacements to transports and it is mentioned they are far from ideal.

Um, Vaaish, you might want to pick up your FAQ 2010 and turn to the Wolfpack list in the RT section, as it lets you take them as regular escorts as long as you do a 1 for 1 with a non ordinance escort. 

I think the bigger point that we are all missing here is what, in gameplay terms, are the various fleets designed to represent and will our changes shift that.

Second, I would not throw out horizons warning as nonchalantly as you seem to be doing. He and sig probably have the most in depth and continuous gameplay experience encompassing most of the fleets out there of everyone talking right now. I have to say I find it rather off putting that we've moved back to the idea of a 4ac cl.

I suggested that we go back to square one and try and figure out what bakka was about before we start shoving ships in it.  Dan made a big speech about how they had done so much work on it (other than removing all the work that was done on bakka for BFG:R by plax, RC gothic and some other people, such as putting back in the Invincible [albeit as a heavy battlecruiser], WHAT WORK?) and it got shot down.


While i respect horizon (my opinion on Sig is well known) he and I have disagreed on this subject for years now.   I've seen every one of the other suggestions that have been made for this ship fail.  And I mean EVERY ONE.  We've all danced around this for years, it's the only option that works.  The real issue is balancing it.  I don't see 2 per 500 being all that game breaking, because it and Dictator are only in a single IN list together (which already has an epic fuckton of LBs from having every single SM and IN carrier in it, some of whome are much better and cheaper than the 2 LB Defiant), so the argument that it's 'stepping on dictators toes' holds no water whatsoever.  If the idea of it in the admech list makes Horizon lose sleep at night, ban it in admech.  The Voss Trio are rare ships before 800.M41 anyway.

(And by Horizon's admission, I'm the foremost authority this board has on Bakka and I'm totally ignored)

[Vaaish]

I admit I'm not overly familiar with the RT lists, but I believe we are talking about primarily IN here and I believe my point still stands. I do not see supporting any form of 4 lb cl.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Yes by way of RT just about every fleet has ready access to the Escort carrier. Its the -worst- carrier in the game tho so thats not saying much, it still doesnt touch the Exploder for pts/bay either.

What was the warning for Horizion, not being funny but Im not seeing it.

[BaronIveagh]

I admit I'm not overly familiar with the RT lists, but I believe we are talking about primarily IN here and I believe my point still stands. I do not see supporting any form of 4 lb cl.

*shrug*

It's the one solution that works.  We've all covered this ground a dozen times now, going back before FAQ 2010. 

We've dropped cost, buffed it six ways till Sunday and it still sucks.  4 LB is hte onyl way to fix it. (Though I'm firmly in favor of crippling it in other ways.  The total lack of weapons other than lbs and maybe a prow weapon will make it balanced even at 2 per 500 and 120.  150 seems to make people happier though)



Escort carriers are indeed the worst carrier in the game, but since everyone is making panicked declarations of how having x amount of LBs will utterly imbalance everything, I like to point out that minmax players can already do just that for less and the game has not come crashing down around our ears yet.  It's probably one of the reasons that the vote on the Jovian was deadlocked, people are realizing that IN having AC isn't as scary as has been made out in the past.


Horizon has been talking about a 4 lb Defiant in the admech list.  I can kind of see what he's driving at, but there's a simple solution to it: pull the defiant from that list.  His other suggestion of 6 defiants and 2 emps I find less than terrifying because it's utterly a one trick pony and fragile compared to other lists at that point level, even if bolstered with SCs.

[afterimagedan]

but they are heavily restricted in use since Escort carriers can only be taken as replacements to transports and it is mentioned they are far from ideal.

Um, Vaaish, you might want to pick up your FAQ 2010 and turn to the Wolfpack list in the RT section, as it lets you take them as regular escorts as long as you do a 1 for 1 with a non ordinance escort. 

I think you have made a fair point about escort carriers.

I think the bigger point that we are all missing here is what, in gameplay terms, are the various fleets designed to represent and will our changes shift that.

Second, I would not throw out horizons warning as nonchalantly as you seem to be doing. He and sig probably have the most in depth and continuous gameplay experience encompassing most of the fleets out there of everyone talking right now. I have to say I find it rather off putting that we've moved back to the idea of a 4ac cl.

I suggested that we go back to square one and try and figure out what bakka was about before we start shoving ships in it.  Dan made a big speech about how they had done so much work on it (other than removing all the work that was done on bakka for BFG:R by plax, RC gothic and some other people, such as putting back in the Invincible [albeit as a heavy battlecruiser], WHAT WORK?) and it got shot down.

Saying I made a "big speech" and knocking what we have changed already isn't going to get you anywhere, nor is it making your point. You're just bullying.

While i respect horizon (my opinion on Sig is well known) he and I have disagreed on this subject for years now.   I've seen every one of the other suggestions that have been made for this ship fail.  And I mean EVERY ONE. Just because options have gotten "shot down"(which you are entirely false by the way considering THIS 10 TO 1 VOTE), doesn't make your option the best.  We've all danced around this for years, it's the only option that works.  The real issue is balancing it.  I don't see 2 per 500 being all that game breaking Good luck getting anyone to agree to 2/500. If you start budging a little bit then you might actually get some of your way., because it and Dictator are only in a single IN list together (which already has an epic fuckton of LBs from having every single SM and IN carrier in it which will all still get less LB/pts than your Defiant with 4 LBs so don't throw out that red herring, some of whome are much better and cheaper than the 2 LB Defiant), so the argument that it's 'stepping on dictators toes' holds no water whatsoever. Exaggeration. You just got done pointing out that there is a list where it overalaps and then said it has no weight whatsoever. In fact, both the Armageddon and the Basion have the Dictator and the Defiant.   If the idea of it in the admech list makes Horizon lose sleep at night, ban it in admech.  The Voss Trio are rare ships before 800.M41 anyway.

(And by Horizon's admission, I'm the foremost authority this board has on Bakka and I'm totally ignored)

Authority in the realm of ideas is earned, and people won't just take Horizon's word for it. Sorry man.

[afterimagedan]

If you and Andrew and Vaaish and whoever else would write up what they think the best Defiant stats should be in this thread, we can take a vote on it.

[Sigoroth]

str 4 lbs
str 4 torps
20cm with a +5 purchasable upgrade
no other weapons,

150 pts.

Anyone that can close with it can kill it fairly easily, and if anyone is insane enough to try and build a fleet revolving around them, it's pretty much guaranteed to lose.  But it's great as long range support for your fleet.

Hey, whack a 0 per 1000 pts or part thereof restriction on it and I'm good with it. No, I lied, I still object to it.

[Bessemer]

so 2Lb no good but 4LB out _{round and round we go...}

Talos did mention 3LB, but this doesn't fit either, so what about this?

2 LB's as is, but due to it's lack of guns compared to other ships, it has greater capacity for supplies of fuel and munitions for Attack Craft and raises your fleets AC limit by an extra 1 per Defiant (that's a total 3 per Defiant, 2LB's +1 for bonus). Any takers?

I don't know if this bears out in any published material, but frankly I'm starting to think that strict adherence to the fluff is starting to bog us down.

[afterimagedan]

I don't know if this bears out in any published material, but frankly I'm starting to think that strict adherence to the fluff is starting to bog us down.

HERESY        jk

[Bessemer]

HERESY        jk

I REGRET NOTHING!

[horizon]

*Repent!*

Some perspective

Defiant @ 150pts with 4lb?
6 of them : 900pts
+ 1 Emperor + fa : 1295pts
+ 1 more Defiant: 1445pts
re-rolls

That is 7*4 + 8 = 36 launch bays
With only Defiants it could be: 9 Defiants = 9 * 4 = 36, so that doesn't change a bit.

Before this 4lb idea, Imperial Navy could only field a maximum of 6 Dictators = 6*4 = 24 launch bays. 12 Defiants 12*2 = 24
Or with an Emperor in it about 26 launch bays

So this idea increases the attack craft options for the Imperial Navy in a max out version from 26 to 36. Pretty heavy margin imo.

Tau could muster a maximum of 6 Explorers (1380pts) = 6*8 = 48 launch bays.
Chaos: 7 Devestations/  7*190 = 1330pt = 7*4 = 28 launch bays

I'd still ditch the all prows must be equal and go for a version with 2lb + 4prow batteries + 2 prow torpedoes.
If there is to much objection to different Voss Prows then it should be dropped in point costs to 100pts. And I see roles for the vessel.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Chaos 32lb @ 1500 (5x Devi, 2xStyx, Lord) *FAQ2010 pricing

IN 28lb @ 1500 (6x Defiant, 2x Emperor, FA) *FAQ2010 pricing

With my earlier proposal max launch bays would be 32 @ 1500 (3x Defiant, 3x Dictator, 1x Emperor, FA) *BFG-R pricing

Horizons option 30lb @ 1500 (5x Defiant, 1x Dictator, 2x Emperor, FA) *BFG-R pricing

Clearly these are min/max and have obvious, exploitable issues overall.

[Talos]

In the Admech list the BFG:R Defiant is pretty useful as an alpha striker: a three ship squadron could do a LO lance strike at Str 9 w/rerolls, a Str 6 torpedo volley combined with a Str 6 AC wave. Pretty dangerous stuff. To reiterate, the BFG:R version has the same hull, speed, prow, turrets and shields as ours, but where it differentiates is in weaponry. It maintains the two launch bays, but also has two lances and a 2 strength torpedo salvo. It is priced at 130pts.

This fits the fluff more accurately than any version presented thus far; people start thinking stupid crap about the Voss Triumverate instead of sticking to the hard truth. The so called "Voss" hull is characterized by two mechanical differences:

1) Reinforced prow like a full cruiser.
2) A 2 Str torpedo salvo. In RT there is even a Voss escort with a 2 str salvo.

If we took the BFG:R profile at 130pts would people be happy? It would change it's role from the support one everyone seems to be advocating but it would be a hella of a lot more dangerous and effective.

Anyone other than me like this profile?