BFG:R Light Cruisers

[AndrewChristlieb]

The IN does tend to think a little backwards. Their mindset seems alot like the actual gameplay really, theyre stuck somewhere between where we were in ww1 and ww2. Thats why theres not really any true "carriers" in the fleet, no one wants to risk moving away from what they know works.

[BaronIveagh]

The IN does tend to think a little backwards. Their mindset seems alot like the actual gameplay really, theyre stuck somewhere between where we were in ww1 and ww2. Thats why theres not really any true "carriers" in the fleet, no one wants to risk moving away from what they know works.

By 'we' I'm assuming you mean England.  Everyone else had a pretty good idea by, oh, 1930. (Though, in the US case, in fighting in the Navy muddled the issue, Bakka's fluff being a not too subtle jab at the US from that period, right down to the disastrous battle where carriers make it out but the big gun ships go down in flames [Circe])

In fact, in fluff Bakka has been very badly mangled numerous times due to a lack of carriers including The Fang (Space Wolves), Circe (nids) and Bakka itself in both 980.M41 (Red Corsairs assault the Navy fortress to considerable effect until Huron is nearly killed by a Grey Knight strike team teleporting onto the bridge of his battlebarge [sound familiar?]) and 999.M41 (Dark Eldar destroy the IN anchorage at Bakka).


 And that's the baffling part is that they do know carriers work, and work quite well.  (Remember that the 'current' IN fleet is relatively new, with Lunars only coming into service in M37, though the Mars is somewhat older).  The 'Big Gun Lobby' would not only have been on Bucharis' side during the Plague of Unbelief (and thus killed by any number of loyalist organizations or as part of the general uprising against all his officers), but due to a serious plot hole, would probably not have existed at all.  Remember that at the time, they would still have been using the 'old' IN fleet aka the Chaos Fleet. 

One of the mainstays of which is the Styx, which given the time it takes to complete a battleship, would still have been very much in service at the time of the 'Young School's ride to power.

Because the Gothic does perform on its own?

According to fluff it performs poorly during the Gothic War.




With Defiant we've buffed a dozen different ways either for BFG:R or for FAQ 2010. 

It continues to suck.

It's time to address the Elephant in the room and try giving it 4 lbs like every other game system it appears in does.

[horizon]

Let the elephant be the elephant and ditch the 2lb Defiant to 100pts.

Oh yeah, that gothic war bit about the Gothic
Bad IN players who influenced that. 

[BaronIveagh]

Let the elephant be the elephant and ditch the 2lb Defiant to 100pts.

It's been made cheaper before.  It didn't help.  Let me ask it this way: Why does a cruiser have the same number of launch bays as an escort, which costs half as much and is not limited to 2 per 500 pts.

Granted, the cruiser is marginally faster and has more HP.

Oh yeah, that gothic war bit about the Gothic
Bad IN players who influenced that. 

  Don't look at me, I have Gothics, but I use Lunars.

[Vaaish]

Or we could shoot the elephant and mount it's head on a wall, removing the difficulties with a live elephant entirely.

The problem we face is that with no change it sucks, with point changes it still sucks and 4ac is just awkward for a cl not to mention starts to step on the toes of the full carriers due to point cost comparative to using the dictator or emperor for equivalent ac.

To answer your question, the escort dies on a 5+ to a torpedo, two lance hits, or on a 4+ to an AB. On top of that it gets a -1 to ld when it tries to reload and has far worse turning for an escort sized ship. It basically sucks worse

[AndrewChristlieb]

Actually I was refering to the US issues.

I would be ok with the current stats +2 launch for ~150ish pts.

[afterimagedan]

I'm entirety fine with a 2 launch bay Defiant. I think the profile is not cut out for solo deviants. The defiant, as it is now, is best squadroned and partnered with either another defiant or an IN cruiser.

[Tyberius]

I'm also ok with 4 lb's... A light cruiser can have 4 Lb's  in the same way a styx or a jovian can have 6 lb's.

if with 2 Lb's it now costs 110 pts, with 4 lb's it should cost 136 pts.....

[BaronIveagh]

I'm also ok with 4 lb's... A light cruiser can have 4 Lb's  in the same way a styx or a jovian can have 6 lb's.

if with 2 Lb's it now costs 110 pts, with 4 lb's it should cost 136 pts.....

Let's say 140 to split the difference and it seems reasonable to me as well.

[afterimagedan]

You would be allowing the IN to have a massive ordnance boost. For 840 pts, you can have launch capacity 24. I don't know of a ship that can beat that except the Explorer. This is not fitting for the Imperial Navy at all. 

[BaronIveagh]

You would be allowing the IN to have a massive ordnance boost. For 840 pts, you can have launch capacity 24. I don't know of a ship that can beat that except the Explorer. This is not fitting for the Imperial Navy at all. 

You might want to look at the Segmentum Solar list in Armada.  Ordinance is what IN is all about, when it's not about Nova Cannons.  According to fluff AC are quite popular in Ultima (and Tempestus before the Gareox Incident) and fleet carriers exist in Pacificus and Obscurus, though were never statted (unless you want to use the Nemesis).

[afterimagedan]

2 Dictators have lc8 for the same price as 3 Defiants at lc12. Yes, there are differences on firepower, durability, and maneuverability, but this is REALLY stepping on the Dictators toes here.

Also, show me some sources that say that ordnance is what the IN is all about. I think is would be fair to say that IN is all about torpedoes and nova cannons.

[BaronIveagh]

2 Dictators have lc8 for the same price as 3 Defiants at lc12. Yes, there are differences on firepower, durability, and maneuverability, but this is REALLY stepping on the Dictators toes here.

Also, show me some sources that say that ordnance is what the IN is all about. I think is would be fair to say that IN is all about torpedoes and nova cannons.

If you're ignoring those three stats, as I've said, you can do that with escort carriers now.

And if you mean AC you shouldn't say 'Ordinance'. 

That said, before I start on fluff, are you a) Only Blue Book counts, B) Blue Book and Armada count, C) Blue Book, Armada, other codexs, and BFGM, D) BL, Blue Book, Armada, other codexs  and BFGM, or E) FFG, BL, BLue Book, Armada, other codexs and BFGM count?

Because once you pick one, you can't go back on it and say 'That doesn't count' if you said it was permitted earlier.  (Can't tell I've had to deal with this question before, can you?)

[Talos]

Before this battle continues, I have a few points to make:

1) 2LB Defiant does not really excel at anything: it is weak in every department. If we keep it at two launch bays we only have two realistic options. One is to lower it's price. The second is too increase it's effectiveness in some way and increase the price.

2) 4LB Defiant is pretty hefty AC. IN has fleets with lots of it, but at 4 LB this thing does become an anomaly, the kind that drives people away, even those who are okay with BFG:R.

3) With standard IN hulls we can't make a 3LB CL can we? If it was possible I would suggest that route.

I think the biggest item of contention over this damn vessel is that it has no real established role. Need a fast torpedo volley in your enemies flank? The Torp Dauntless will serve you better. Need a defensive ordnance vessel with fleet support weapons? You are better off investing in a Mars or Dominion Battlecruiser. Want a combined ordnance vessel? The Dictator fills that niche nicely.

Stats as they are, the only possible role of the Defiant is as a cheap defensive ordnance tool for low ordnance fleets. Idea being you can stick a few of these in your various squadrons to give you the AC you need to pursue your broadside dreams. To do that it has to be dirt cheap.

Of course its fluff describes it as being a good pirate hunter, but it does not have the loadout to effectively combat escort squadrons. In FFG's Battlefleet Koronus the Defiant has small launch bays on its sides (similar to our 2lb defiant) along with a small torpedo volley (also similar) and an open slot for....oh wait, it never says. The only weapon in that mount that could make it useful would be a L/F/R lance, but some people might loathe it's bloated prow if that were to happens.

If someone can pigeonhole a role for this vessel that everyone can agree on it will really help this discussion.

[afterimagedan]

I don't care, just give some good evidence to support your claim. Any official sources.

Either way, I think stepping the Dictator's toes is stupid and we shouldn't give the IN an option to out LC almost all other fleets.