BFG:R Light Cruisers

[Vaaish]

Eh...  Two things: one, the three times I tried that it died horribly anyway, and two, my cruiser squadrons are usually full already.  (remember there's a 4 ship limit)  I'm not going to ditch a Lunar to put a light cruiser in.

Different play styles and meta-games then. I've had fair success with them squadroned with full cruisers in the past and I don't typically have full squadrons. Usually a max of two and rarely three ships.

For the cost of an escort more, Armageddon gets the absurdly superior strike cruiser.  For 10 points less Bakka gets the Siluria, which can be pretty brutal in squadrons.

The usual wisdom says that mixing the marines and armageddon fleet isn't as competitive and the batreps I've read as well as my own experience seems to agree.

[Talos]

@Vaaish I have always thought that mixing marines and IN would be sub-par, as their strengths are so different...

Apart form lowering the point value, what do the Voss cruisers require to be playable, even in a list that would feature both? As has been mentioned the Dauntless operates more like the mother of all escorts, with a high speed and firepower for its points. It compensates by being a fair bit more fragile than a full cruiser.

The endeavour cruisers are, as has also been mentioned, designed to fill the role of a mini ship of the line. So what does it require to fit that role? Since it take more shots as a front line combatant, it needs to be somewhat more resilient. It has the armored prow and increased turret to accomplish this. It needs to keep speed with the rest of its squadron, and it's 20cm speed stops it from outrunning its squadmates. Last, it needs firepower that is effective in the same arks as its contemporaries, in this case frontal torpedoes and broadsides.

The reason the Voss triumverate are not that popular is that they do not provide quite the punch required to replace a cruiser, even if they are cheap. Most people are willing to pay the points for more firepower and significant resilience. So we need to make them dangerous and cheap enough that it becomes a decision of resilience vs. firepower. Or just cheap enough that the points spent elsewhere make up for the deficiency.

[Bessemer]

Earlier in the vote for these ships, I did propose the addition of a second shield for the Voss series to aid their longevity as pocket cruisers/ships of the line.

Now these are being debated again, resilience is being thrown up as a sticking point, would this be an acceptable change? If we are going for 110/115 mark, would a rise to 120/125 be in order again for this? Wouldn't be over powering if we make the 6+ front/45^o an option. Can people really use these without the prow?
Doesn't stop me taking the Dauntless/Emperor.

Thoughts?

[Vaaish]

The endeavour cruisers are, as has also been mentioned, designed to fill the role of a mini ship of the line. So what does it require to fit that role?

It was mostly accepted a while back the the addition of the 6+ prow was all they needed to fill this role at 120 points using their existing stats. The change to 110 points and the option to give them the 6+ prow in trade for the loss of turning was the FAQ2010 solution. The simplest thing to do with these is leave them as is and just let them add the 6+ prow for +10 points. I think that particular option was brought up then as well but didn't get implemented.

Earlier in the vote for these ships, I did propose the addition of a second shield for the Voss series to aid their longevity as pocket cruisers/ships of the line.

Just no. The only reason the marines get this is they are forced to rely on the SC. I really can't see justifying an extra shield on an IN CL.

[horizon]

I've read stories about people who fielded a fleet soley of Endeavour's, Endurances and 'bfg-forbid' Defiants.
They made such a visual impact (lots of models with high turnrate) that the enemy fleet lost easily.

I also think it isn't about adding 1 voss CL to your line, it is adding the jigsaw (well... two piece puzzle) of Endeavour & Endurance. Add those to a Lunar in a Squadron, field them behind the cruiser so the cruiser can take the first shots, if the cruisers gets tackled manoeuvre your CL's to a favourable position.

Then again... I have used 1 Defiant in an AdMech fleet and it was horrible. I have used 1 Endeavour in an AdMech fleet and it was great!

[Bessemer]

I also think it isn't about adding 1 voss CL to your line, it is adding the jigsaw (well... two piece puzzle) of Endeavour & Endurance. Add those to a Lunar in a Squadron, field them behind the cruiser so the cruiser can take the first shots, if the cruisers gets tackled manoeuvre your CL's to a favourable position.

Can't argue with that.

As for the whole speed option, who here plays RT? Are the Voss series mentioned in any of the books? If so, how does their speed compare to a Lunars? Is it significant enough to warrant speed 25 in BFG?

My RPing days are long behind me so I have no real reason to shell out for the books, but if they have information we can use for BFG, shouldn't we use it?

[horizon]

Hey,

Rogue Trader values:
(First value = speed / second value = manoeuvrability)

Sword Class Frigate :  8 // +20
Dauntless CL : 7 // +15
Lunar (Gothic/Dominator/Tyrant):  5 // +10

Avenger (base for other CG's expect see below) :  5 // +5
Repulsive :  5  //  +8
Exorcist : 4 // +4

Overlord : 5 // +10
Chalice CB : 6 // +10
Armageddon :  5  // +10

Conquest Star Galleon 4 // +5
Ambition : 5 // +12
Dictator : 5 // +8

Endeavour/Endurance:  6 // +12
Defiant:  6 // +12
 
Falchion:  8 //  +17
Iconoclast  10  // +25

///
So ya see, the Voss CL's are stepped between Lunar and Dauntless.

[Talos]

Mind you, in RT light cruisers use the same turning rules as full cruisers, so the comparison is not quite accurate. Not to mention some vessels are presented have certain components present, even in their navy configurations that automatically increase some of those configurations.

[horizon]

Well, in BFG light cruisers use the same turning rules as full cruisers as well, so? 
The pre-installed components are not altering the speed/turn rates as far as I can see.

[Talos]

Are you looking in the RT core rulebook, Into the Storm, Battlefleet Koronus, Edge of the Abyss, Stars of Inequity, Hostile Aquisitions or the Navis Primer? Outside of Soul Reaver I don't own any of the adventures, but I do own every other book and several engine types increase the speed of the vessel, particularly on the Viper scout sloop and Sprint Traders.

[BaronIveagh]

Are you looking in the RT core rulebook, Into the Storm, Battlefleet Koronus, Edge of the Abyss, Stars of Inequity, Hostile Aquisitions or the Navis Primer? Outside of Soul Reaver I don't own any of the adventures, but I do own every other book and several engine types increase the speed of the vessel, particularly on the Viper scout sloop and Sprint Traders.

Best Quality Engines or anything that gives you the modified drive archeotech upgrade (Planetbound for Millenia/Reliquary of Mars) can also push the speed up.

Either of those also let you take Augmented Retro Thrusters, which increase maneuverability.

The other thing is that the Defiant, unlike other CL carriers, has a Str 2 LB per side as opposed to Str 1.  (Weirdly, both BFG and RT GENERALLY have the same Str for weapons.)

A little quick work and...

DEFIANT Class Light Cruiser

NAME Lenore   
   
TURRET RATING     3      
      
SHIELDS     Single Void Shield [C:BEST]            
ARMOUR     20                
SPEED 7      
HULL INTEGRITY     60            
MANOEUVRABILITY 17                  
DETECTION 20       
SPACE AVAILABLE     63       
POWER AVAILABLE:     66      
SPACE Left Over           0      
POWER USED               64
      
Skill Test Modifiers            
Navigation/Warp +10, Social +20, Investigation +10, Intimidate (Social) +10 w/Active Hymn-Casters, CMD/Hit&Run +20, CMD/Boarding Action +20, CMD/Hit&Run (Def) +25, CMD/Boarding Action (Def) +25, Command (Attack Craft ) +5      
Crew Disposition:   Fanatical            
Crew Max    100%         
Crew Quality  Competent (35)   
Morale Max  108%   (Current)  100%         
Normal Operations (Morale)         
Attack Craft Rating +2   
                                     
Achievement Bonuses: Trade + 200  Crime + 125  Creed + 100  Military + 100  Explore + 150                    
                  
Essential Components                  
Jovian Pattern Class 3 Drive [Modified/Archeotech], Strelov 2 Warp Engine (CL,C) [C:BEST], Warpsbane Hull, Flight Command Bridge (CL,C,CB,CG; Tests to ready new squadrons automatically pass) [C:BEST], M-1.r Life Sustainer (+1 Morale Loss) [C:BEST], M-201b Auger Array [C:BEST], Clan-Kin Quarters (All morale loss reduced by 1, minimum 1) [C:BEST]
                  
Supplemental Components                  
Compartmentalized Cargo Hold, Barracks, Augmented Retro Thrusters, Extended Supply Vaults (Extended Repairs add 1 additional HI point), Temple Shrine to the God Emperor, Librarium Vault, Trophy Room, Observation Dome, Broad-Band Hymn-Casters (Enemy must make Diff. -10 Tech-Use Test for Vox/Comms) (External, 30VU), Empyrean Mantle (When 'Silent Running' it is 2 Degrees HARDER to detect this Vessel)(External), Crew Improvements: Best (+3 Morale, +5 Quality), Ostentatious Displays of Wealth (Best Quality), Starchart Collection (-1d5+5Days Warp Travel Time, Min. 1 day), Pilot's Chamber, Small Craft Repair Deck, Flak Turrets (-10 Detection Penalty when in use), Power Ram (External, +1d10 Ramming Damage),                   
                  
Background Package                  
Planetbound for Millennia (+10 Mvr w/in 5VU of a planet)                  
                  
Weapons                  
Godsbane Lance  [Strength: 1, Damage:1d10+2, Crit Rating: 3, Range: 12]  Location:PROW                  
Jovian Pattern Landing Bay  [Strength: 2, Damage:x+x, Crit Rating: --, Range: ]  Location:STARBOARD                  
Jovian Pattern Landing Bay  [Strength: 2, Damage:x+x, Crit Rating: --, Range: ]  Location:PORT                  
                  
   
                  

I've read stories about people who fielded a fleet soley of Endeavour's, Endurances and 'bfg-forbid' Defiants.
They made such a visual impact (lots of models with high turnrate) that the enemy fleet lost easily.

I've heard of this too, but never seen it.  They usually die to the first Eldar/Chaos/Necrons fleet they meet.  They do pretty well against Tau though.

[Talos]

@BaronIveagh I know what can do it, i'm merely pointing out that some ships (particularly in battlefleet koronus) come stock with components/upgrades that push their stock stats up, resulting in a higher stat, even on a typical navy version.

Don't worry, I have played my fair share of Fantasy Flight Games: From Dark Heresy to Only War I have played AND GM'ed several campaigns of each, so I consider myself somewhat experienced...

[horizon]

Never played them, but own the corebook and battlefleet koronus (I gave them tips, ideas, without me you would have had less torpedoes l

[Talos]

Haha, nice. Interesting fact you were probably aware of: Secutor Monitor Cruiser (a light cruiser from Into the Storm) is light cruiser with slower speed an maneuverability than most light cruisers, but has a dorsal mount (unlike normal light cruisers) and has the option of taking Full cruiser shielding (i.e. two). It's and AdMech design they developed because AdMech fleets need to be self-sufficient in their explorations, and they needed a light cruiser that could explore for decades (as light cruisers are designed to) but still woop ass if required. Brought it up because it's a similar principle to what we are trying to make the voss into.

[afterimagedan]

The vote is up for the Endeavor and Endurance.  What should be done about the Defiant, if anything?