BFG:R Light Cruisers

[afterimagedan]

So this seems to be the subject that is backing up the Bakka and Admech lists. Could you discuss that here and make the changes we need to make so they are appropriately priced in the IN, Bakka, and Admech lists?

Admech light cruisers have the Admech bonuses and downsides which will make it more expensive than the IN version. The Bakka version has an additional built in turret (not the one you can optionally buy).

It seems that we have the profile already voted on and extablished, so let's figure out the right cost for it in each list when the modifications the list provides.

ENDEAVOR (currently 125 pts)
6 hits, 20cm speed, 90* turns, 1 shield, 6+/5+, 2 turrets
P/S wbs 30cm 6
Prow torpedoes 2
Prow WBs F/L/R 2

ENDURANCE (currently 125 pts)
6 hits, 20cm speed, 90* turns, 1 shield, 6+/5+, 2 turrets
P/S lances 30cm 2
Prow torpedoes 2
Prow WBs F/L/R 2

DEFIANT (currently 115 pts)
6 hits, 20cm speed, 90* turns, 1 shield, 6+/5+, 2 turrets
P/S Launchbays (1 each)
Prow torpedoes 2
Prow wbs F/L/R/ 30cm 2

[Vaaish]

I think 110 or a max of 115 is about right for the CL.

All though they get a hefty defensive bonus with the prow armor and 90` turns on paper, this really doesn't play out in game for a couple of reasons.

1. 6+ prow is roughly the equivalent of shooting at the ship abeam. Since most of their weapons are  p/s they don't gain as much benefit from using their 90` turns to point the the 6+ at the enemy up close. At range, it does make them more survivable, but at range they won't be using the 90` turns while closing. Prior to gaining the 6+ prow, the Endeavour series did work all right squadroned to a full cruiser and benefiting for the 6+ prow and squadron rules to avoid fire. The added 6+ just makes it a bit easier to work alone although their speed dictates they stay with the line.

2. Lances ignore the 6+ and the ships only have one shield. It's the same problem that Marines faced. With one shield and 6 hits, it's pretty easy to cripple them and on top of that completely ignore their armor bonus that's supposed to help the durability.

[BaronIveagh]

The other problem is they're too slow.  While they're armed as light cruisers, they don't work like light cruisers.  They really need +5cm speed.

[Vaaish]

Nah. the concept behind the Endeavor and the Dauntless are different. The Dauntless is supposed to function like a large escort hence the 25cm speed while the Endeavour series is supposed to function like a small cruiser and get the 20cm speed.

The dauntless does its job well, the endeavour not so much which is where the idea of the 6+ prow came from. It lets the Endeavour series function as part of the line with full size cruisers. I actually think that while the loss of 90` for the 6+ prow is a bit annoying, it does help to emphasize the role the Endeavour is supposed to have.

[BaronIveagh]

Nah. the concept behind the Endeavor and the Dauntless are different. The Dauntless is supposed to function like a large escort hence the 25cm speed while the Endeavour series is supposed to function like a small cruiser and get the 20cm speed.

The dauntless does its job well, the endeavour not so much which is where the idea of the 6+ prow came from. It lets the Endeavour series function as part of the line with full size cruisers. I actually think that while the loss of 90` for the 6+ prow is a bit annoying, it does help to emphasize the role the Endeavour is supposed to have.

Again we hit that 'supposed to'  The reality is that the way the game works, no light cruiser will ever be effective in a line of battle.  Stop and think about the Strike Cruisers stats and how badly it didn't work until we gave it extra shields on top of 25cm AND +6 all around armor (and all the other crap it does as well). 

Further, Endeavor was never meant to be a 20cm ship.  It's speed was pared back for Armada from the original 25cm design.  No other stats were changed, IIRC.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well yes and no on the speed. The originals presented in the BFG mag had 20cm speed and no option for a 6+ prow. The Bakka list from the 2002 annual had a different Endeavour (weapons 8/side no lfr) with 25cm speed.

I could see these dropping back to 110 each, even with the boost to the prow armor they just dont have the oomph to be worth any more, 115 for Bakka with the built in 3rd turret, admech to be determined i suppose?

I too would like to see them get the option to increase their speed tho given that almost every fleet can take these but not the Dauntless. A simple option to swap the 6+ prow for the +5cm and +1d6aaf would allow these ships to fulfill both roles.

Is everyone still good with the Defiant retaining the 2wb and 2torp over the 2 lances?

[Vaaish]

The reality is that the way the game works, no light cruiser will ever be effective in a line of battle.  Stop and think about the Strike Cruisers stats and how badly it didn't work until we gave it extra shields on top of 25cm AND +6 all around armor (and all the other crap it does as well). 

Actually, they are. Squadron them with a full cruiser for protection and they work fine. I know you like fast IN but the Endeavour doesn't need 25cm speed to work.

Further, Endeavor was never meant to be a 20cm ship.  It's speed was pared back for Armada from the original 25cm design.  No other stats were changed, IIRC.

I've never seen a version of the Endeavour at 25cm, but I'm guessing it was part of the ancient bakka? I doubt that the designers with armada just changed the speed accidentally. I do know for a fact that the concept for the dauntless is a larger escort while the Endeavour comes from the opposite direction to be a smaller line cruiser. They are two different types of ship.

[AndrewChristlieb]

As an alternative allowing the Dauntless into other fleets would work just fine also.

[afterimagedan]

So, 110pts and 115pts with the extra turret in Bakka. What about the Defiant? If this is the case, the Admech versions at 130 seem appropriate.

[horizon]

For the sake of it:
20cm speed is fine for them. They work good like that.

110pts would work fine vs the Dauntless, and like I said in the other thread: 130 for the AdMech version. 

[Khar]

I've been thinking - this game already has a 6 hit 6+/5+ 20cm speed line cruiser, in form of Tau Protector. From what I know, no one considers Protector particularily week, so maybe it should be look at as an example of how
'mini line cruiser' shoud function...

First of all, defensively it has 2 shields and more turret strength. I don't think we can give it to Endeavor types - even for strike cruisers it's optional upgrade. Would really define the ship as a small cruiser, though. On the other hand, its 'prow' can be disabled by critical hit, while imperial can't.

Second of all - Protector has overlapping fire arcs, so what it lacks in durability it makes up for in ability to concentrate firepower. maybe this should be looked at? less port/starboard guns, more front?

Third - it has 90 turns. If it hadn't, it would not really work. So What I'm certain is Endeavor should remain at 90, regardless of prow armour.

In general, it might be worth looking at Endeavor type cruisers not as 'different dauntless' but rather 'cheaper imperial protector'. Thoughts?

[horizon]

hmmm, more like:

"The Voss CL are no substitutes for the Dauntless CL."

They can be added to larger cruisers due their broadside gunnery.

[BaronIveagh]

Actually, they are. Squadron them with a full cruiser for protection and they work fine. I know you like fast IN but the Endeavour doesn't need 25cm speed to work.

Eh...  Two things: one, the three times I tried that it died horribly anyway, and two, my cruiser squadrons are usually full already.  (remember there's a 4 ship limit)  I'm not going to ditch a Lunar to put a light cruiser in.

The reason for the speed reduction was the Segmentum Solar list.  In order to balance the fleet,  they had to reduce the number of 25cm ships in it, but GW had already designed the minis as 'Voss' at that point, IIRC.

hmmm, more like:

"The Voss CL are no substitutes for the Dauntless CL."

They can be added to larger cruisers due their broadside gunnery.

The problem with that is 'Why would any competitive list ever take an LC other than Dauntless?"  Armageddon and Bakka both have better LC options than any of the Voss ships, and those are the only lists the Voss ships appear in.

For the cost of an escort more, Armageddon gets the absurdly superior strike cruiser.  For 10 points less Bakka gets the Siluria, which can be pretty brutal in squadrons.

[BaronIveagh]

Double Post

[afterimagedan]

What about the Defiant?