Despoiler

[Sigoroth]

This ship is too expensive at 400. I must've missed something in the old BFG:R. The last I knew it was 390 with the option to replace all its prow launch bays with a strength 9 torp salvo at no cost (yes, an underpowered option). Now it's 400 (overpriced) and you can replace 2AC (6WBe) with 9 torpedoes (13.5WBe) for no cost. What? Why wouldn't you do that all the time?

I get that AC is valuable and costs more than it's WBe due to its defensive nature, but that's a biiiig gain for no cost. Drop the base ship back down to 390 and give the torp upgrade a 10 pt price tag. At 390 it's already at the high point of its acceptable price range.

Edit: Ok, so the torpedo trade does change the role of the Despoiler from stand-off support ship to an attack carrier for which it's not all that well suited, but it's still a fairly significant gain. Anyway, the base ship shouldn't be 400. The extra firepower and speed compared to the Emperor isn't quite worth the points, Ld and turrets difference at 390 pts.

[afterimagedan]

I totally agree. I have always thought the same think about the torpedo swap.  9 Torpedoes for 2 LBs? Yes please.  Actually, every way I calculate it, it shows that the Despoiler should be 390. The +10 for torpedoes should be more like +10 points but I agree, there should be some break for it being an abeam vessel, and the torpedo upgrade is less useful if it is functioning to its strengths. I'm game.

[Talos]

Instead of wasting our time with an extra poll, let's just get enough people to agree and just implement it. I'm all for democracy, but people are going to be okay with this. It's very minor and very logical. Maybe at 6+ people agreeing?

For the record, I agree with this change.

[afterimagedan]

I can make poll time much shorter. Question: want me to just put them up for 2-3 days for now on? People almost always get their vote in within 1-2 days. Plus, I like keeping track of the votes with which number of vote it is (vote 44 for example).

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Despoiler is at 390pts with the option to swap 2 launch bays for 9 torpedoes in BFG-R already, the profile listed on Dan's link doesn't appear to have the current update thats on the traitor fleets v1.4.

So are we debating the value of swapping the launch for torpedoes? In that case i would agree that it pushes the ship to an attack carrier format and that it should pay a bit extra for the swap. Of course with its speed and the prow lances/ Torp swap the original version had the same feel to it. 

Now if were debating the actual usefulness of the ship and its cost its worth is a lot closer to what the Emperor is. Its speed in no way balances with the extra turret and +1 leadership and the rest of its weapons are close with an edge to the Despoiler, especially as an attack carrier. I would see this priced closer to 370/375 than 390 with a +10 for the Torps.

[afterimagedan]

Where is the drop to 390 in the original voting? I would have a hard time seeing it lower than 390 but I'm open to hearing arguments.

[AndrewChristlieb]

[afterimagedan]

Well it may have been changed by plaxor but I didn't see it in the original voting.list.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well lets nail down the cost/options and have a vote.

Should it have the Chaos Battle Barge options as suggested by Brethren?

[afterimagedan]

Brethren's Despoiler option: "changing the dorsal lances to "str 4 / 45cm  (+10pts)"

Ok, so let's figure out the overall point cost and how much the 9 torpedo option should be and let's get voting. Any more suggestions?

[Sigoroth]

Brethren's Despoiler option: "changing the dorsal lances to "str 4 / 45cm  (+10pts)"

Ok, so let's figure out the overall point cost and how much the 9 torpedo option should be and let's get voting. Any more suggestions?

I'm good with that upgrade. Yes, the Despoiler could stand to come down even further than the 390 mark, but I wouldn't underestimate that +5cm speed. It allows it to turn when under fire. The Emperor can be forced to go straight. A group of escorts sitting in the Emperor's rear and massing turrets can really ruin its day. Against a Despoiler though they'd be fed their own livers. The Despoiler is more likely to be able to actively close with an enemy too, making better use of its WBs as well as having significantly more firepower at >30cm.

Also, while the +1Ld of the Emperor is still significant it would be less so if character costs came down even more drastically. For example, consider a situation where you automatically get a free fleet commander at certain points breaks (say Ld 8 at 751-1499, Ld 9 at 1500+ and Ld 10 at 2k+ where applicable). After all, we all know that fleet commanders really aren't worth their current costs, nor even their reduced costs, this is just what we have to pay to get them. The 25 pt cost associated with the Emperor's +1 Ld isn't actually worth this, rather this is what it would cost to replicate. I think a truer value would be more like +15 pts. And for a 5th turret we're looking at 10 pts at most, meaning these things are worth no more than 25 pts. The speed boost on the Despoiler is worth at least 10 pts, meaning that at 390 pts the Despoiler is paying ~40 pts for its better firepower. A little expensive, but not much.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Options:
- weapon batteries: "45cm/8" or "30cm/10" (no cost)
- exchange prow lances: "torpedoes/8" (+10pts)
- dorsal lances: "45cm/4" (+10pts)

These are the options Brethren posted in the other thread. This was pulled from the Powers of Chaos pdf, they are the options for the Chaos Battlebarge Varients listed under the Vengeful Spirit.

[Sigoroth]

Options:
- weapon batteries: "45cm/8" or "30cm/10" (no cost)
- exchange prow lances: "torpedoes/8" (+10pts)
- dorsal lances: "45cm/4" (+10pts)

These are the options Brethren posted in the other thread. This was pulled from the Powers of Chaos pdf, they are the options for the Chaos Battlebarge Varients listed under the Vengeful Spirit.

Well the first two options are inapplicable here. The BFG:R Despoiler already has 10WB@60cmL+R and it doesn't have prow lances to replace. The dorsal lance option is fine though.

[afterimagedan]

Ok, so let's seal the deal:

Despoiler 20cm speed 45* 4 shields 5+ armor 4 turrets
P/S WB 60cm FP10
F/L/R Lances 3 60cm
Prow Launch bays 4 squadrons
P/S Launch bays, 2 each.
- dorsal lances: "45cm/4" (+10pts)
-Drop 2 launch bays from front for 9 torpedoes for (what cost?)

[Sigoroth]

Ok, so let's seal the deal:

Despoiler 20cm speed 45* 4 shields 5+ armor 4 turrets
P/S WB 60cm FP10
F/L/R Lances 3 60cm
Prow Launch bays 4 squadrons
P/S Launch bays, 2 each.
- dorsal lances: "45cm/4" (+10pts)
-Drop 2 launch bays from front for 9 torpedoes for (what cost?)

If you left this at 390 pts then you're in no danger of underpricing it at all. The torpedo upgrade I'd put at +10 pts. It does change the role from support ship to attack carrier for which it isn't well suited, but you do get a substantial firepower increase and it's an option.