Imperial ship costs and the defiant class light cruiser

[Sigoroth]

Pure ignorance but thats why we love you .

Is this directed at me? If so, what are you talking about? If the Tyrant had 6WB@30cm swapped for 4WB@45cm in BFG:R it would still cost 180 pts, not 185 pts. In other words, the original profile Tyrant comes down from 185 pts  to 180 pts in BFG:R (and is then fixed to be a useful ship). The range upgraded version (10WB@45cm) is still 10 pts more than the base model, regardless of whether we're talking the 30cm range or the original mixed range profile.

So upgrading 6WB from 30cm to 45cm range costs 10 pts.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Right let me help you out here Sig.

180 (base price with 12@30)
-5 (drop from 6 to 4 on one hard point)
+5 (range increase from 30 to 45cm)
180 (6wb@30/4wb@45cm)

So Im not sure what your arguing about here...

[horizon]

About the remaining 6wb, the cost 10pts to go to 45cm.

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

+5 (range increase from 30 to 45cm)

Range increase should be 10 pts ?!

About the remaining 6wb, the cost 10pts to go to 45cm.

Ja that is what I am talking about 

On topic:

Including:

- this weapon table:
- https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6RMqQCAwCfPR3c2WTRNbEc0c0E/edit?usp=sharing
- hit: 10 pts
- shield: 15 pts
- turret: 5 pts
- Speed: 20-25: 0 pts
- Speed: 30: 5 pts
- Speed: 15: -5 pts
- Turn 45°: 0 pts
- Turn 90°: 5 pts
- Chaos/Defiant (&Variants) boarding bonus: 2,5 pts
- Improved Thrusters: 5 pts
- Assault Boats: 5 pts
- Boarding Torpedoes: 5 pts

Excluding:

- weapon synergies and
- special rules (marked in orange in the table)


I get the following values for the selected ships (I tried to avoid those with to many special rules):

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6RMqQCAwCfPOEtZdlpFU3JFYmM/edit?usp=sharing

- @ Lunar "Benchmark" - ja it is 180 pts. But still a lot of the rest is not working out ...
- Also: I hid some spelling mistakes in there - yes they are on purpose to keep up the tension! 

And now: Feedback please! 

[AndrewChristlieb]

Right let me help you out here Sig.

180 (base price with 12@30)
-5 (drop from 6 to 4 on one hard point)
+5 (range increase from 30 to 45cm)
180 (6wb@30/4wb@45cm)

So Im not sure what your arguing about here...

Oy! Ok since no one seems to undertand :/.

You drop one hard point from 6wb to 4wb. -5
You then boost those 4wb to 45cm range. +5

That leaves you with a ship with 6wb@30cm and 4wb@45cm that costs 180pts.
Of course to get all of the weapons to 45cm you have to pay the extra 10 pts but thats a given as its a priced option I was just trying to quantify part of the switch to 10 from 12wb that you dont see.

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

You drop one hard point from 6wb to 4wb. -5
You then boost those 4wb to 45cm range. +5

Ah now I get the problem. Well: yes and no.

I did this rather "dynamic" approach like you suggested in a more accurate way here:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6RMqQCAwCfPR3c2WTRNbEc0c0E/edit?pli=1
(Simply take a look at the top-left table for WB)

But also used the "non-dynamic" approach for a while.

Truth is: by now I don't know how it is really done. (First Strength then Range/ the other way around and when to round?) The only thing that is for sure is: at one point it is summed up and at another it is rounded   .

[Sigoroth]

Hey, for arcs:

a str2 dorsal lance @ 60cm firing LFR = 30pts.

Not quite. A str 2 dorsal lance @ 60cm firing LFR = 30pts when also taken with a CB upgrade.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Is there anything that mounts two lfr 60cm lances other than a CB? And where does that put a Battleship with 3, 45pts? Admech pricing was figured at 15 pts for one in BFGR so that seems correct. 

[Sigoroth]

Is there anything that mounts two lfr 60cm lances other than a CB? And where does that put a Battleship with 3, 45pts? Admech pricing was figured at 15 pts for one in BFGR so that seems correct.

This isn't the point. The difference between a Murder and a Hades is that the Hades costs 30 pts more, has 2L@60cmLFR and has stricter composition limitations. So adding 2L@60cmLFR for 30 pts and no other change is inaccurate.

[AndrewChristlieb]

So are you saying the 2 lfr 60cm lances should be more than 30 points and offset by a "heavy cruiser restriction" modifier?

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

Which brings up the question how much such an upgrade would cost? And how much of these 30 points are for what?

Also this would mean that certain weapons - namely the good LFR ones - that are present on these ships do become rather cheap compared to plain LR or F ones ... a disturbance in the force if you will  .

Furthermore a lot of ship already differ from calculated points - no matter which rules you use - and sadly it won't get any better with changes like that ...


P.S. Furthermore there is also the possibility that those limitations with bigger ships - "you need to take two ships of that to get that bigger ship" - are meant to limit the presence of to many good ships with those good weapons. So no extra cost but a simple mechanism to prevent e.g. 3 battleships within 1000 pts.

[Brethren]

This isn't the point. The difference between a Murder and a Hades is that the Hades costs 30 pts more, has 2L@60cmLFR and has stricter composition limitations. So adding 2L@60cmLFR for 30 pts and no other change is inaccurate.

Sorry, if I drop it in too harsh... but that's just crap.

Following that logic every ship with a restriction should get a price reduction.
...like Imperial Light Cruisers for expample.
...or Grand Cruisers and Battleships besides Battle Cruisers.
...not to forget this nasty limit on ships with a Nova Cannon.

How many ships in IN or Chaos fleets does that leave that are "priced right" in your eyes?
Those ship restrictions are not there as a punishment, but merely as a way to prevent a spam of "goodys".

[Sigoroth]

This isn't the point. The difference between a Murder and a Hades is that the Hades costs 30 pts more, has 2L@60cmLFR and has stricter composition limitations. So adding 2L@60cmLFR for 30 pts and no other change is inaccurate.

Sorry, if I drop it in too harsh... but that's just crap.

Following that logic every ship with a restriction should get a price reduction.
...like Imperial Light Cruisers for expample.
...or Grand Cruisers and Battleships besides Battle Cruisers.
...not to forget this nasty limit on ships with a Nova Cannon.

How many ships in IN or Chaos fleets does that leave that are "priced right" in your eyes?
Those ship restrictions are not there as a punishment, but merely as a way to prevent a spam of "goodys".

If they're "goodys" (spelt "goodies" btw), then they're obviously better point for point than the non-restricted vessels.

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

@ Brethren: hey there!

@ Sigoroth: I do not think there are hidden "point changes". As I said: calculations also do not indicate something here but feel free to come up with suggestions *

From my point of view however it is simple: better ships (with those better weapons) are limited through fleet composition rules.

Shifting point costs would then either balance this mechanism out, or charge them double: depending if we are talking about extra costs, or point re-gain. Both approaches however would work against the idea of basic fleet composition rules.

The only exception to this would be that they are already included (in existing ships) which would result in rather cheap prices for those rather effective weapons  .


* As posted before:

I am willing to accept any reasonable explanation - based on composition rules or different ideas - why points differ. So far however: neither does my original calculator support this nor the newly patched-together approach - based on the suggestions made in this forum:


http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5208.msg42108#msg42108

[Brethren]

If they're "goodys" (spelt "goodies" btw), then they're obviously better point for point than the non-restricted vessels.

Sorry. "Goodies". My bad.
I could more likely go with Battle/Heavy Cruisers being charged extra for having dorsal weaponry at all, besides paying for the weapons mounted there.