Imperial ship costs and the defiant class light cruiser

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

Ok so two lances fixed fire arc 30cm= 20pts.

Torpedoes are 2/1 with lances (per the Dauntless and Despoiler varients) which would mean 6 torps=3 lances=30pts. You have them @20.

Sry been busy pushing around numbers  ... So what do we have here?

Can not really follow you right away where you got the numbers, but lets see.

You took a look at the dauntless I guess by now ...

First of: Lances (front only) are based on guessing -> the only imperial ships with weapons like that are the dauntless. However light cruisers and grand cruisers are always a bad choise as a reference  -> so I figured their price through chaos ships -> which is always worse as chaos is not so uniform  -> I guessed

Regarding the prices:

2 LB R60 L/F/R = 30 pts.
2 LB R45 L/F/R = 25 pts.
2 LB R30 L/F/R = 20 pts.

2 LB R60 F = 25 pts.
2 LB R45 F = 20 pts.
2 LB R30 F = 15 pts.

Torpedoes S6 = 20 pts.

So yes it doesn't really work out for the dauntless: S6 T = 20 pts. vs. S3 LB 25 pts.

Like I said: a guess  . There are no pricetags so I did my best based on other information - and yes the 25 are a rounded value (from 22.5) hence the omnipresent call for abbreviations.

All in all it seems to me - by now - I should only round at the end and include the prices for slots directly ... but that won't effect many ships -> most of them only have 1 value that needs to be rounded at. Meaning: I doesn't matter when I round ...

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Despoiler BB can swap its 4 30cm Front arc lances for 8 Torpedoes and the Dauntless can swap its 3 30cm Front arc lances for 6 Torpedoes if you have valued the lances as 2 for 20 (10 each ) then a str 6 torpedo salvo must be 30pts, no guessing required and i believe that fixes the Lunar, Gothic, Tyrant, Armageddon correct?

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

Raising the point costs of torpedoes would put other ships in a bad spot. E.g. the Dictator, Overlord, Dominator ... and I guess some more.

Better solution would be to cheapen the costs of frontal lances. Let me just test a few things .. a possible sollution is: making frontal lances a bit cheaper. E.g. 5 pts. for a pair on each range:

2 LB R60 F = 25 pts. 20 pts.
2 LB R45 F = 20 pts. 15 pts.
2 LB R30 F = 15 pts. 10 pts.

Would be beneficial for some chaos ships but on a first look without much trouble, considering a small abreviation. Even the dauntless would better suit my calc. ... hm have to check this in depth be right back with some values.

So I just checked it - dropping 5 points per pair of lances doesn't really do the trick either.

Hades:  stated as 200 vs. a freshly calculated 195
Murder: stated as 170 vs. 165
(without the drop the calculator would have got them just right ... )

Despoiler:
- stated as 400 (in the orig. Game) vs. a calculated 390 (including the 5 point drop - still pretty  close)
- stated as 390 (in the old BFG:R) vs. 350*

(* This tells me I should check how the process on the chaos BS is coming along  )

Anyhow:

Dropping the points for the lances would be alright, as it is still within +/- 5 pts abbreviation. The exception to this would be the dauntless: with 5 pints less I get: 95, so 100 should still be alright. On the other hand increasing the point costs of the torpedoes will turn the whole imperial fleet up side down - surely some of them will drop out on the other end then.

The more I think about it the more I get the impression that there seem to be forced double standards when it comes to price costs ...

P.s. Now that I think about it lowering the point costs of the front lances does't really help solving the original problem I adressed - so: nice to look at but not really helpfull I guess  .

[AndrewChristlieb]

Murder.             Tyrant.
170.                    190.
 -10 range          -10 range
 -10 turret          -10 turrets 
 -30 shields      -30 shields
 -80 hits             -80 hits
 -15 weapons     -15 weapons   
 -20 lances       -15 torpedoes
-5 speed             -25 6+
                               -5 premium for range

Lunar/Gothic.      Dictator
180                           210
 -10 turrets.              -15 turrets
 -30 shields.            -30 shields
 -80 hits.                  -80 hits
 -20 weapons         -10 weapons
 -15 torpedoes.       -15 torpedoes
 -25 6+.                  -25 6+
                              -30 Launch
                                -5 synergy

Dominator
190
 -10 turrets
 -30 shields
 -80 hits
 -20 weapons
 -25 nova (without torpedo option)
 -25 6+

Dauntless
110
-5 turret
-15 shield
-60 hits
-5 weapons
-15 lances
-5 speed
-5 +1D6AAF

Well there went my lunch break. This is based off of the Murder vs Tyrant BFG-R pricing and obviously a bit on the fly so i havent had the chance to do more chaos just the basic IN cruisers. I dont like how high the hull goes as that pulls away from the weapons but it sounds legit so far.

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

Well there went my lunch break.

Nooo! Seriously no matter how much I argue here it is not worth sacrificing your lunch break! That was not my intention   .


On topic:

- I like it, thx especially because it circumvents the slot system which was annoying ...

- As far as I can tell the difference is: I gave away some broadside weapons for free, while this system make you pay for everything - but everything (front/broadside weapons & upgrade) is cheaper -> my guess: this makes more sense.

I dont like how high the hull goes as that pulls away from the weapons but it sounds legit so far.

Jup know what you mean - never bothered my while giving away some weapons for free - like I used to do. But if you calculate "hard" everything else must be pretty cheap which looks rather strange - btw. I totally agree on the costs for basics (hits, schields, turrets ...)



But - sry to say  - I would need some explanation here and there:

- Cost for "range" & "premium for range"
   E.g.:
   - Tyrant (I assume the best one for ranged fire known to me) has a S6 R45 WB & a S4 R30 WB and pays 15 pts
   - Murder has a S10 R45 WB and pays 10 points
   -> Shouldn't the tyrant be cheaper when it comes to range upgrades?

- Are there any criteria for weapon synergies? (neutral question for further investigation)

- No additional costs for "chaos bonus" - I know it is not much but a bonus is a bonus? (Or do I miss a  downside somewhere?)

- "Still something not 100% correct" Just a small example - based on what you posted - but you seemed to be in a bit of a hurry, or hungry (! Beware the lunch break !  ) so maybe it's not a thing at all ...

*** all points listed are based on the previous post ***

 Armageddon:
 - 8 hits:   80
 - 2 tur:    10
 - 2 shi:    30
 - Prow:   25
 - Weap:  20 
 - range:  10
 - torp:    15
 - LB        45 (? really high for a LB S2 R60 L/F/R compared to LB S2 R60 F for 20 points)*
 ->         235
(* Price is needed or the Armageddon won't match the 235 points)

Hades
 - 8 hits:   80
 - 2 tur:    10
 - 2 shi:    30
 - weap:   15
 - range:  10
 - LB F:     20
 - LB         45 (*based on the price the Armageddon pays for a LB S2 R 60 L/F/R)
->          210 (vs. the listed 200!)

So either they pay different prices for the LB*, or there are hidden weapon synergies, or something else. Not sure but it does not yet end up ...

Anyhow - I really like the info and the input of raw price costs! (Although it is all closely related my costs a second opinion is always nice). Hopefully all my questions can be answered so I can use this to rework my calculator and maybe expand to Orks, Tau and SM!!!! 


P.s. I won't be around internet till Sunday so take your time to answer - so long, have fun!

[horizon]

Heya,

my lunch break went to shuizzles as well.

I went with the following, by all, not finished nor done, but I got great results... untill I added launch bays...

1 wb @ 30cm = 1,67pts
1 torp = 3,33pts
1 lance @30cm = 5pts

1wb@45 = 2
1 lance @ 45 = 7,5

1wb@60 = 2,25
1 lance @60 = 10

Nova Cannon = 30

(you cannot round)

1 hitpoints = 10pts
1 shield = 10pts
1 turret = 5pts

prow delflector

speed I didn't factor (as 20cm vs 25cm both have pros and cons), turns neither as I went for 45* only

Here is a link to my document.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuaXA8fc5AQ8dGU3SnV3MGRxVjUyQ2RscXd4VkNlOGc&usp=sharing

as you can see gun cruisers go perfect.
Problems arise if I add carriers.

Going by the old token:
1 lance = 3 wb = 1,5 torpedo = 1 launch bay
would punt the Launch bay at the Lance value of 5 per point of strength, but that just goes into the fog.

The solution would be to take another approach, which does result in downgrading the values for hull, shield & turrets. Firstmost hull points should come down then.

tomorrow.... another lunch.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Ok, about to work out then dinner but first the Tyrant BFG-R is 190 with 10wb@45cm or 180 with 12wb@30cm. It should be 185pts with the range (its +10 for the range but -5 for the downgrade from 6 to 4) however it pays a "premium" for having something unusual, in this case having 45cm ranged weapons on an IN cruiser.

More later.

[Sigoroth]

Ok, about to work out then dinner but first the Tyrant BFG-R is 190 with 10wb@45cm or 180 with 12wb@30cm. It should be 185pts with the range (its +10 for the range but -5 for the downgrade from 6 to 4) however it pays a "premium" for having something unusual, in this case having 45cm ranged weapons on an IN cruiser.

More later.

No, it pays +10 pts for upgrading the range of 6 WBs by 15cm. This already includes the "premium" cost. The other 6WB@30cm get swapped straight to 4WB@45cm for no cost.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Lol... Funny? Or did you forget thats not actually how it works? The last time i checked a Tyrant with 4wb@45 & 6wb@30 doesnt cost 180.

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

P.s. I won't be around internet till Sunday so take your time to answer - so long, have fun!

And I am back ...


Well hello there ladies and gentleman,

you seem to be skipping a lot of meals lately - better not make that a habit  .


Ok after 2 hours of thinking about comments I decided for something different. The opinions here vary greatly: so I suggest we try to go for common ground and move on from there?

Things - I guess - we all agree on so far:
- 1 hit = 10 pts.
- 1 turret = 5 pts.

Thing that should not be that hard to argue on:
- Shield costs: horizon argued with 10 pts. the rest seem to agree on 15 pts. So from where did you get the impression of 10 pts when the upgrade options list 15 pts. ?


Things that have to be clarified!
- Prow upgrade (so far ranges form 10 - 30 pts)
- Weapon costs
- upgrade costs **
- Firing arcs - to include or not include? *
- Speed&Turn - to include or not include? *

*
This game is all about maneuvering and firing. Not taking these things into consideration seems like a no-go to me. Although not everything should be judged that sharply like I originally planed: horizon has a point saying 20cm or 25 cm equals out. However 15cm vs 25 should have an impact.

**
I would stick with: upgrading 6WB (L&R) or 2LB (L&R) costs 10 points, as a baseline for further thoughts. Reducing the strength of a WB from 6 to 4 drops this price to 5 points in total. But feel free to argue with me about it  .


And now that I am writing this I start to realize that this is probably not going to work. Some ships simply do not fit in every system (including mine  ) ... damn it ...  I will try to set up something else ...

P.S.
Ok I am right now setting up tables. They include the value of every Strength/ Range combination for the different types of lances and weapon batteries. It is a bit of work so give me some more time. Once it is done however we have a common base for further discussions  .

One thing that caught my attention though is: how much for range upgrades at which stage?

- Upgrading a S6 WB (S6 L + S6 R) -> 10 pts.
- Upgrading a S9 WB  (S9 L + S9 R) -> ?
- Upgrading a S12 WB  (S12 L + S12 R) -> 20 pts.

Theoretically it is above S6 and I would automatically apply +20. Also possible is a middle value like +15 ...

(And yes some of you will already not agree to the basic mechanism I depict here: but I think increasing the range of a S12 weapon battery is indeed more expensive then just boosting a lone S6 battery.)

[Sigoroth]

Lol... Funny? Or did you forget thats not actually how it works? The last time i checked a Tyrant with 4wb@45 & 6wb@30 doesnt cost 180.

Yes, it does. The BBB Tyrant is overpriced. The base cost is brought down to 180 pts. The range upgrade costs the same as before, 10 pts, so the range-upgraded Tyrant costs 190 pts instead of 195 pts. However, since the mixed range Tyrant is super-shit and there's a need for a 12WB@30cm 180 pt torp boat (and no need whatsoever for a mixed range piece of shit) then the base Tyrant gets its 4WB@45cm swapped for 6WB@30cm for no cost.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Pure ignorance but thats why we love you .

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

So hello there everyone,

I created the promised weapon chart.

Please note:
- No rounding included.
- High-lighted some common combinations in green to better get around.
- Nut sure about the L/F/R weapons ...
- No Nova cannon yet ...
- Nothing of this has yet been compared to actual ships!!!
- It is a try to find common ground on weapon costs.

Please give me some comments to know what I am up to here 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6RMqQCAwCfPVC0tTzRnUGRiRjg/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: damn it ... ok I uploaded it twice and still there are some things not correct - note the S5 torpedoe volley is not the "wold-famous" one I wanted to highlight but infact the S6 below. But I guess you are smart enough to find your way around there anyhow 

[horizon]

Hey, for arcs:

a str2 dorsal lance @ 60cm firing LFR = 30pts.

[Mogwai_with_Mohawk]

Hey, for arcs:

a str2 dorsal lance @ 60cm firing LFR = 30pts.

Damn it ... I know you are right (I have the same costs in my original calc) but it won't work out.

Wait a second ... let me check this.

Ja: you are 100% correct  . It is the original value I had in the calc but I misinterpreted the current discussion. Anyhow: what I would need now is the price for just a S2 R30 LB  :

My guess would be the following: the LFR Lances are identical to the L/R ones regarding the price. And of course this has to be transferred to the LFR WB table ... which would mean that the L/F/R tables can simply be replaced by the L/R ones in general ...

new version:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6RMqQCAwCfPS3h5Q2RlM3l1R0E/edit?usp=sharing

Anyone opposing this?