BFG:R: Terminus Est, Scion of Prospero, and Vengeful Spirit

[Sigoroth]

@Sigoroth I used to be in the same boat as you for the lances...but geez, we have this thing priced at 480pts! That's...pretty hefty. This thing is almost the same price as a tomb ship at this point, and I have often suspected that necrons would see more play if their capitals were priced a bit more aggressively. Thematically, it should have locked front lances. But at 480pts, this thing is pretty expensive. The thing is about the same price as three lunars or carnages, which is to say the damn thing costs 1/3 of your fleet, more if you include (guaranteed at any point level it sees play) a HQ of any type. I say let's let it be really damn powerful. It's cost will make anyone think twice before including it.

Fix lances forward, drop cost, problem solved.

[afterimagedan]

Sig, could you write up a profile and point cost that would like that way?

Anyways, with the new Despoiler, I think we can drop the VS. Any thoughts about the Scion? I had a feeling this thread would turn into a Terminus Est discussion really quickly.    LET'S GET THIS DONE.

[Brethren]

Anyways, with the new Despoiler, I think we can drop the VS. Any thoughts about the Scion? I had a feeling this thread would turn into a Terminus Est discussion really quickly.    LET'S GET THIS DONE.

Thought about the Scion of Prospero:
- take the new Despoiler / Battle Barge with "Dorsal Lances/4 45cm" and "Prow Torpedoes/9"
- add the Tzeentch stuff

That was the reason why I wanted to know which Despoiler class we're running. (I'm quite happy with the result of that.)

The Vengeful Spirit can be dropped then.

We can fix the Terminus' prow lances to forward and drop like 15 or 20 pts.

[Talos]

@Sigoroth Agreed.

[Brethren]

Terminus Est:                       Pts: 465 = (405_ship + 60_special)

Battleship/13  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Hives/14      60cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3           45cm F
Prow Launch/3          Attack craft

Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+10 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)

Scion of Prospero (Despoiler class):                       Pts: 450 = (410_ship + 40_special)

Battleship/12  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star WBat/10       60cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes/9     30cm F
Prow Launch/2          Attack craft

Special Rules:
- Mark of Tzeentch (+15 pts)
- Vortex of Chaos (0 pts)
- Vagaries of Fate (0 pts)
- Thousand Sons CSM (+ 25 pts)

Um, did I get the prices for the Marks right? I can't recall the consenus on that. 

[AndrewChristlieb]

Terminus Est:                       Pts: 465 = (405_ship + 60_special) points 370+60=430pts

Battleship/13  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Hives/14      60cm14wb@30cm. There is no call for the range to be 60cm, actually the 30cm range is more fitting with the Death Guards tactics.
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3           45cm F
Prow Launch/3          Attack craft

Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts) should be +15 :/
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+10 pts) this is worth no more than 5pts imo
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)

[afterimagedan]

I agree with you on the Terminus, Andrew. What does everyone think about the Scion profile Brethren posted?

[Sigoroth]

The Hives of Nurgle is worth at least 10 pts. Maybe more. No way is this a 5 pt upgrade though.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Hives of Nurgle is worth at least 10 pts. Maybe more. No way is this a 5 pt upgrade though.

Eh, its a very incidental bit there. I would say step back a step and see if that possible 5pt disparity is really that pressing over all. Not that i agree with you its certainly not worth 10points imo. 

[afterimagedan]

The mars gets a column shift with it's batteries and gets it no matter which ship it shoots at for 15pts. The hives are only for receiving shots to the Terminus, AND it's only for close range. There is no way it's worth more than 10pts. I would go with 10pts.

[afterimagedan]

Terminus Est:                       Pts:430pts
Battleship/13  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Hives/14      60cm14wb@30cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3           45cm F
Prow Launch/3          Attack craft

Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm)
- Death Guard CSM
- Death Guard Terminators

Vengeful Spirit: Drop

Scion of Prospero - 450pts
I propose this:
1. drop the torpedoes (because of front-heavyness)
2. make the wbs on the side go to 60cm (more like the Despoiler) at wb9 (fitting for Tzeentch)
3. we can add the option to reduce the launch bays by 2 on the front for torpedoes (same upgrade as the despoiler).
4. Add CSM built in.

[Talos]

Death Guard are known for their somewhat slow and unrelenting approach...their heavy weapon of choice? The autocannon, a very long range weapon. According to Blood Gorgons, almost all their tactical squads have one. My point? Autocannons have long range. Would it be really that bad having it with 45cm batteries, even with a price hike? It's not the end of the world, but death guard can have long range stuff too

All in all that profile is such an improvement its amazing. It's not worth slightly more though? Not that i'm complaining...

As for the scion, since we are going with a long range theme with it, in addition to the 60cm battery range lets drop a lance strength on the dorsal and boost that to 60cm as well. If we get rid of the torpedoes, the option has to allow you to buy Strength 9 torps (because fluff but also to make it equivalent), although I'm not sure a named vessel should have options.

Although to be perfectly frank, I think the Scion is fine with just the lance/battery range increase and the torpedo markup, even if it means a price hike. This thing is a freakin' beast with these changes: it might only have okay firepower, albeit at long range, but it can(would) be able to pump a Strength 9 torpedo volley alongside a Strength 9 AC wave. Maybe the changes above would put it at 475ish?

[AndrewChristlieb]

There are no autocannons in BFG... . what i was getting at is theyre known for their boarding abilities which tends to swing ships in bfg to the shorter range: orks, space marines, nids, the Conqueror, even DE tend to have short range weapons.

[Sigoroth]

Eh, its a very incidental bit there. I would say step back a step and see if that possible 5pt disparity is really that pressing over all. Not that i agree with you its certainly not worth 10points imo.

So you don't think that immunity to short range column shift on a four shield battleship is worth at least 10 pts?

[Sigoroth]

The mars gets a column shift with it's batteries and gets it no matter which ship it shoots at for 15pts. The hives are only for receiving shots to the Terminus, AND it's only for close range. There is no way it's worth more than 10pts. I would go with 10pts.

Yeah, except the Mars is paying 15 pts to get the left shift on SIX weapon batteries. The TE is nullifying the enemy's left shift on upwards of 20 WBs. Seriously, when you're trying to pop a BB you have to spike your damage in order to get hull hits. For this you get into close range and fire into the prow or rear. Nullifying this range bonus (which could possibly be a double left-shift) is an extremely potent defensive mechanism.