BFG:R: Terminus Est, Scion of Prospero, and Vengeful Spirit

[afterimagedan]

Changes? Remember, they all currently have CSM in them.

[Brethren]

Wohoo! Talking time...

One question first. I'm looking at the beta pdf afterimagedan put together on his site. Is this the Despoiler class we're taking in? I really hope so, because the bigger part of my thoughts is based on it.

• Vengeful Spirit: Drop it.
  Despoiler class and Chaos Battle Barge are almost the same ship. And since the previous works on BFG:R^Plaxor "repaired" the Despoiler, the Vengeful Spirit won't be needed anymore. If there's need we could add similar upgrades to the Despoiler entry. But there's only one option left that would be missing... changing the dorsal lances to "str 4 / 45cm  (+10pts)".
  
  
• Scion of Prospero: Simplify. Base it on the Despoiler class.
  
  • Change dorsal lance batteries to "str 4 / 45cm  (+10pts)", similar to the upgrade mentioned above.
    
  • Exchange 1 prow launch bay with "str 6 torpedo (+10pts)". Point value is just a suggestion.
    
  • Add Tzeentch stuff at appropriate cost.
    
  This way the Scion of Prospero would sail on the same course as the Conqueror and the Wages of Sin with one or two minor quirks. True, the total launch bays would be reduced to 7 (instead of 9), but it's firepower would increase and basically I don't think the launch bays are the main reason to sent the Scion into battle.
  
  
• Terminus Est: Welcome to Hell / the Warp. This ship will require a bit of work on our side.
  
  
  • The Terminus is the predecessor of the Despoiler class and said to be much more powerful. In a way it is, but strangely the short ranged weaponry and is low price (430pts) don't match that. However, I wouldn't want to sit in front of the loud end of 8 L/F/R lances! Lock-on anyone?
    
    
  • As with many others the model shown doesn't match the armament, but I'm slowly getting used to that. Still I base my thinking on the ship entry, not the model.
    
  • As for the ship entry... there's way to much weaponry mounted on the prow. 3 launch bays and 4 lances? I think we need to shove those bays around a bit. Maybe get it to port/starboard (4/4) using two of three of the battleships slots.
    Accordingly the 3rd slot would be it's Hives of Nurgle (aka weapon batteries). But "Str 6 / 30cm" seems like a bit of a joke.
    Dorsal and prow armament would remain at 4 L/F/R lances each.
    
    
  • The Miasma of Pestilence rule... Honestly, who came up with that crap? The turrets of the Terminus Est don't work against torpedoes. And that's everything this rule does. Quite a flaw. You'll often need its AC as CAP. Maybe the main reason why the ship comes at a low price.
    
  • The Terminus' Hives of Nurgle grant the enemy no right-shift on the gunnery table for being within 15cm. I figure this is a bit of an advantage, since the ship is bound to get close due to its low weapon ranges.
    
    
  So what do we have? Or better, where do we start? I can think of two ways.
  Either we stay close to the original entry, move the armament around and that's it.
  Or we design something that really would stand above a ordinary Despoiler class as indicated in the background and something closer the the Planet Killer point-wise. (Mainly by adding range to the weapon systems)
  
  

So... that's it for now. Points and further details when we basically agree on how the ships should turn out. Have fun. 

Brethren

[afterimagedan]

VS: What about the 4 prow lances it currently has over the Despoiler?

[Brethren]

VS: What about the 4 prow lances it currently has over the Despoiler?

When you look at the Despoiler class in BBB you'll see that it has the same armament as the Vengeful Spirit. (with 2 launch bays moved from sides to the prow)
Since the Despoiler class was rewritten due to it's strange weapon stats, I assumed that the Chaos Battle Barge would get the same treatment. But we can lay out a 5th battleship class if you want.

[horizon]

To be honest: doesn't matter. People who build character vessels will convert anyway. Let them do the prow as well.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Despoiler was based off the earlier designs employed for the battlebarges of the original Legions. I think that this would be the best base for the remaining Barges.

Issue: Theres two verions of the Despoiler in the documents. I will be working off the first version for this.

The Vengeful Spirit:              Pts 410 (currently)

Battleship/12  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Weapons/6 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/3        60cm
Prow Lance/4            30cm
Prow Launch/4          Attack craft

There are currently no special rules for this ship.

Terminus Est:                       Pts: 430 (currently)

Battleship/13  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Hives/6      30cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm
Prow Lance/4            30cm
Prow Launch/4          Attack craft

Mark of Nurgle. Terminus Est cannot be boarded.
The extra hit and point cost are already included in
its profile and point cost and does not have to be
paid for separately by the ship‟s commander

Miasma of Pestilence. The Terminus Est is
surrounded by vast swarming clouds of the same
Warp-spawned flies which buzz and howl through
its interior and first transformed Typhus into the
Host of the Destroyer Hive. This miasma
permeates outwards from the ship through blisters,
boils and fractures in its surface or through
corroded discharge tubes and weapon barrels. It
replaces the ship‟s turrets and works in exactly the
same way as turrets against attack craft but has no
effect against torpedoes.

Wow this is a crap rule, but we already knew that . I think this should be seperated from the standard turrets and maybe work like a blast marker (roll a 6+ for each wave/individual marker and on a 6 remove them)

Hives of Nurgle. Along either side of the
Terminus Est, row upon row of pustules, hives,
and sores fester upon the ship‟s cankered hull.
These growths cover the rusted remains of what
was once the ship‟s main broadside batteries like
coral over rock, periodically erupting violently and
hurling a mixture of corroded debris, ammunition
and filth out into space. The Hives of Nurgle
function in exactly the same way as weapons
batteries. The Nurgle player may also place a
single Blast marker anywhere along the Terminus
Est’s course after each move to represent the
constant seeping from these hives. It also obscures
and distorts the shape of the Terminus Est,
meaning that vessels within 15cm do not benefit
from a left column shift when firing at it.

Not bad but the battery strength should be boosted as theyre quite weak.


More to come, time to play uno with the kids .

Scion of Prospero:                 Pts: 450 (currently)

Battleship/12  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Weapons/9 45cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm
Prow Lance/4            30cm
Prow Torpedoes/9     30cm
Prow Launch/2          Attack craft

Mark of Tzeentch

Vortex of Chaos. Favored horrors of Tzeentch
writhe and cavort amidst the very bulkheads and
girders, and a swirling vortex of Chaos surrounds
this vessel. At the end of each movement phase,
any ship within 15cm of this vessel (friend or foe!)
must place a blast marker in base contact with it.

Ok.

Vagaries of Fate. The Changer of Ways provides
for command of the Fates, affording its auguries
snatched glimpses of the future. The ship is gifted
with an additional +1 re-roll added to that from the
Mark of Tzeentch, but the daemons bound to the
hull are easily enraged by a commander‟s inability
to use this foresight and inflict 1Hp damage if this
ship‟s or its Lord‟s re-rolls fails for any reason

Ok, should not increase the price of the ship tho.


The only real problem I see with these is how top heavy the prows are, not that thats so much of a problem really but I know some people wont care for it.

[afterimagedan]

Ok, I say drop Vengeful Spirit.

Terminus Est, drop Miasma and up the firepower of the Hives, call it a day?

Scion. Vortex is pointless. Vagaries of fate can still be the RR the Scion can use including the punishment thing considering MoT is now a different thing. Andrew, you basically want to make this have the same launch bay setup as the Despoiler?

[Talos]

I'm all for dropping the miasma, but what about this for an idea:

Miasma: The Terminus Est's turrets only hit on a 5+ normally (6+ against eldar as per usual) but it's turrets may be used against both AC AND torpedoes in the same turn? Flies are not bothered by tracking priorities after all, if anybody here that own's a garbage would know.

The batteries are rather weak, but to be honest the est packs a metric boatload of short range lances. Not many ships can pour 8 lances and 9 AC into a single target. So it having weak batteries is not much of an issue in my book.

[Brethren]

Gentlemen, hold your horses!
I want to have one thing clarified before we continue: Which version of the Despoiler class do we use? BBB or Revised 1.0?

The armament of the Despoiler_BBB feels wierd. Weak weapon batteries and a big hole in the prow that's supposed to have 4 lances. The Despoiler_BFG:R takes care of that by moving launch bays to the front and strengthening the port/starboard batteries.
My point: If we use the BFG:R-version we won't need the Vengeful Spirit. If we stay with the BBB-Despoiler class, I'd like to see an entry for a Chaos Battle Barge. It's got a lot of weapon options that make it more worthwhile than the old Despoiler.



Are these your suggestions for the ships or did you want write down the original stats? In case of the latter you got something wrong there. Original stats in purple.
Sorry, but sometimes I want to be extra clear before I confuse something and write a crappy answer.

The Vengeful Spirit:              Pts 410 (currently)

Battleship/12  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Weapons/6 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft     <- Launch/3
Dorsal Lances/3        60cm
Prow Lance/4            30cm
Prow Launch/4          Attack craft     <- Launch/2

There are currently no special rules for this ship.
Options:
- weapon batteries: "45cm/8" or "30cm/10" (no cost)
- exchange prow lances: "torpedoes/8" (+10pts)
- dorsal lances: "45cm/4" (+10pts)

Not that it would matter. Overall launch bays are still at 8. Really nice options, though.

Terminus Est:                       Pts: 430 (currently)

Battleship/13  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Hives/6      30cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft     <- Launch/3
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm
Prow Lance/4            30cm               <- L/F/R
Prow Launch/4          Attack craft     <- Launch/3

Same here. But the original Terminus has a total of launch bays of 9 and it's prow lances are L/F/R.

The Hives of Nurgle can be kept as it is. Like AndrewChristlieb I think the weapon strength needs a boost.
Considering the Miasma of Pestilence I really like Andrew's approach.

Scion of Prospero:                 Pts: 450 (currently)

Battleship/12  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Weapons/9 45cm
Port/Star Launch/2    Attack craft     <- Launch/3
Dorsal Lances/4        45cm
Prow Lance/4            30cm              <- no prow lances
Prow Torpedoes/9     30cm              <- Torpedoes/6
Prow Launch/2          Attack craft     <- Launch/3

Again, it's total of launch bays is 9, torpedoes at 6 and no prow lances.

Sorry for kind of stalling the progress here, but hopefully I know what basis we're working on afterwards.

[AndrewChristlieb]

What I posted was the profiles with the "standardized" weapons layout of the BFG-R Despoiler, of course I forgot to take into account that the BFG-R Despoiler went up to 10 on the 60cm weapons. BTW when did we decide to add the lances back on the prow? That seems to be the only really unbalancing thing about the ship as it sits and I know the original BFG-R had the Despoiler at 390 without the prow lances.

[Brethren]

Whew, what a relieve. I know what I'm talking about again.

BTW when did we decide to add the lances back on the prow?

There was no decision. We only talked about giving the Despoiler an option eventually merging the Vengeful Spirit and Despoiler class into one entry.
Something like:

Despoiler class / Chaos Battle Barge:              Pts 400

Battleship/12  Speed/20cm  Turns/45*  Shields/4  Armor/5+  Turrets/4

Port/Star Weapons/10   60cm
Port/Star Launch/2         Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/3             60cm
Prow Launch/4               Attack craft

Options:
- may exchange 2 prow launch bays for "torpedoes/8" (no cost) or "lances/4 30cm F" at (+10pts)
- may set dorsal lances to "45cm/4" at (+10pts)

That's basically the BFG:R-Despoiler with added lance options of the Battle Barge.
Such an entry would also give us an excellent basis for the Scion of Prospero.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The BBB entry lists 6 weapons / 4 launch per side and 4 lances prow. 400pts

The original BFG-R entry lists 10 weapons / 2launch per side and 4 launch prow. 390 points

The entry on the current BFG-R lists 10 weapons/ 2 launch per side and 4 lances/ 4 launch on the prow. 400 points

Of course these all have the same hull stats and 3 dorsal lances.

So where did the last one come in?

The Despoiler could work as the basis for the Barge, how does everyone else feel about that?

I think if we bring the 4 30cm F lance option back it should be "you may exchange 2 prow launch bays for 4 lances, F 30cm, or a strength 9 torpedo salvo.

[afterimagedan]

Oops, I messed that up. I thought that the Despoiler needed those lances and I had forgot to put them there so I did. I also misread the original voted Despoiler stats. I will fix that now.

[Sigoroth]

Regarding the Terminus Est, the reason it has 9 launch bays is because 9 is the number of Nurgle. However, there is some disparity between the model and the stats still. I would say that rather than messing with its stats, simply model it with only 1 WB hardpoint each side (for which str 6 is fine) and 2 launch bay hardpoints each side (which puts it on a par with a Styx).

As for the top heavy prow, well I would rather see the prow lances come down to str 3 to reduce this bloat somewhat. This would mean it would have slightly over the odds in prow armament but slightly under the odds in broadside armament, so it would all even out. Well, as neatly as possible while keeping somewhat inline with its original intent.

An interesting side note is that if this is done this will give it a 9L equivalent focus fire to one side. Very Nurgle. Swapping the 6WB for 2L would make this actually 9L, rather than just equivalent, which I'm just throwing out there.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Est would be good with 4 launch hard points but im not sure what comes in the upgrade kit, does it have 4 launch hard points?