BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka

[afterimagedan]

I am saying that the Apoc is different.

[Vaaish]

I am saying that the Apoc is different.

Ok, but I'm not really sure how this applies here. Nobody is saying the apoc isn't different.

[afterimagedan]

So what do you mean about the penalty to firing at 60cm? The Apoc has 6 at 60cm, the Victory has 4 at 60cm. There is that lock on downside for the Apoc, but the 4 lances instead of 6 is a definite downgrade.

[Vaaish]

The apoc takes a bm and can't turn whenever it fires outside of 30cm. It looks you took out the LO requirement entirely to fire over 30cm. The only problem the apoc had was the stupid engine crit rule. Not sure why the weapons changed but that's a different conversation.

My point being that the victory doesn't have any penalties for firing over 30cm and even though it has two fewer lances, the effective difference is 1 hit on average. Fewer lances is a downgrade but not that much of one and there are couple of upgrades that make up very difference.

[afterimagedan]

The Apoc changes were from the original BFG:R voting, not me. Plus, please don't put the changes on me, specifically. I haven't made any changes to BFG:R that I know of that haven't been voted on.

[urlhttp://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4903.msg37400#msg37400]Here are the original votes for BFG:R[/url]

So, what do you think we should change about the Victory to make them balanced between the two?

[Vaaish]

Sorry about that. When I'd last remembered was that the only change the apoc was getting was a bm if it failed the LO to fire 60 cm. it took a lot of digging, but I understand how the change came about. Unfortunately it really changes the apoc so that the benefits of a victory are rather minimal. With the ret already at 355 it puts things in a even more difficult place for the victory.

I think that the victory would either need to be deleted in favor of the apoc or the victory née to change a bit more.

I'm thinking s6 60cm wb port and starboard. 355 points. No other changes.

That gives it a combined 18 WBE per side with a max combined 24 on one side. Hopefully that makes it a different flavor gunship from the ret and the apoc.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Sounds like an upgunned vanq.

[Vaaish]

Basically, yes but the apoc changes combined with the ret changes leave precious little room for either the victory or vanq in any capacity. The Apoc has too little downside now to have room for the victory without overlapping something unless you just ignore the apoc entirely since it won't show up in bakka.

I think id have pushed to have the apoc at 30cm with the options to shoot 60cm if locked on for the cost of a bm in base contact.

Anyway, the fluff has this as a derivative of the retribution attempting to replicate the apoc. That means it should be a mix of the two. Hence port and starboard batteries with the lances. The other option is a bit silly but we could replace the dorsal batteries with S3 or 4 lances  at either 60 cm or 45 cm.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Mmm lancy goodness.

[afterimagedan]

It would be nice to have it look unique. One weapon battery and 2 lances per side. I think would be entirely fitting for the fluff too. So,

Lance 4 per side 45
Wb 6 per side. 45cm
wb 9 dorsal 60cm
Nova. Can switch to torps.

Similar but flipped retribution. Lances on side instead of top. Less wbs on side but dorsal instead. Nova instead of torps. Can switch to torps.

[Talos]

I like this version too, stands out from both the retribution and the apocalypse.

-Retribution is a centre field line breaker, clearing out things with torpedoes and splitting the enemy fleet with its punishing broadsides. The dorsal lances finish off wounded targets.

-Apocalypse closes slowly, punishing outflankers with its nova whilst providing long range fire support with its lances with battery for blowing shields.

-Victory closes firing Nova, then breaks and brackets the core fleet, bombarding it with combined fire while other cruisers pick off its leaving.

Sounds legit to me.

[afterimagedan]

It should be 365 pts and -10 for switching to torps, just like the current version.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Vanquisher?

[afterimagedan]

Hmm, well that Victory would not look different than the Vanquisher, now that I look at it. However, I think that is the best option for the Victory and I think the Vanquisher could use some work. One thing that I was thinking of was to make it similar to the old Ret stats without the dorsal stuff.

[Vaaish]

Hmm, well that Victory would not look different than the Vanquisher, now that I look at it. However, I think that is the best option for the Victory and I think the Vanquisher could use some work. One thing that I was thinking of was to make it similar to the old Ret stats without the dorsal stuff.

Yep. that's the problem. If you change the victory to basically a vanquisher loadout you eliminate the vanquisher. If you boost the Victory you end up with an apocalypse. Personally I think this is where we are breaking down. Ships were created to bit between other offerings and we've changed the ships so that there aren't spaces for some of these variants now.