August 03, 2024, 09:27:37 PM

Author Topic: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka  (Read 27836 times)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 06:16:45 PM »
Vaaish,
I assume that you haven't read the current Plaxor BFG:R stuff? It has huge changes. What we are doing now is mild compared to it.  So far, we haven't made any rules changes (except the 2 hit escort rules that were needed for that change).

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 06:30:35 PM »
To note the BFG-R stats I was working off of on the Vanq was Plaxors version 1.6 Imperial fleets.
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Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 08:11:47 PM »
Ya man. Vaaish, afterimagedan brought BFG:R back to its roots. But with some new rounds of voting and entering 2-hits escorts albeit it still being a tricky subject.

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 08:13:49 PM »
Big changes are a thing, and they are here to stay. A few points of my own:

1) If the Dominion is removed, where does it go? Bakka is the only list that has it, and yet it seems rather popular, based on what I have heard over my time on this forum.

2) Would the Jovian see more play with a Nova Cannon on it? It would need a price hike but it would give it a much more specific role: it would be a long range support vessel, firing its NC and lances at vulnerable targets whilst protecting the rest of the fleet from ordnance.

3) The two havocs should be the same. Goes without saying.

4) Bakka +1 turret option is not bad at all, problem is it does not work if the player in question is spamming carriers to overcome the drawback of the list. What if we limited the amount of carriers by point total? As in only one per 750pts or so. If we also made the turret increase MANDATORY, we would significantly enhance the flavor of the fleet whilst keeping its power level neutral.

Thoughts?

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 08:15:55 PM »
Dominion should stay.
The Jovian is just a bad omen.
3) agreed, yes.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 08:38:16 PM »
Big changes are a thing, and they are here to stay. A few points of my own:

1) If the Dominion is removed, where does it go? Bakka is the only list that has it, and yet it seems rather popular, based on what I have heard over my time on this forum.

It should be moved to the Bastion, Solar lists. Bakka should not be able to field these outside of reserves.

2) Would the Jovian see more play with a Nova Cannon on it? It would need a price hike but it would give it a much more specific role: it would be a long range support vessel, firing its NC and lances at vulnerable targets whilst protecting the rest of the fleet from ordnance.

I think the problem is that no one wants the Jovian to see any play :P.

3) The two havocs should be the same. Goes without saying.

Indeed.

4) Bakka +1 turret option is not bad at all, problem is it does not work if the player in question is spamming carriers to overcome the drawback of the list. What if we limited the amount of carriers by point total? As in only one per 750pts or so. If we also made the turret increase MANDATORY, we would significantly enhance the flavor of the fleet whilst keeping its power level neutral.

I dont like the idea of making something mandatory, further limiting the availabilty of carriers might be something to look at.

Thoughts?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Bessemer

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 08:59:32 PM »
How about allow one carrier per 500pts. Leaving the Defiant unrestricted may be an option, the Bakka list should be about firepower, and the defiant does make a fluff fitting stop-gap for adding AC...actually recommending the Defiant...think I need a lie down... :-[
 
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Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 10:39:08 PM »
I had only seen the fleet lists in Dan's sig at the time and hadn't looked over the IN one yet. I miss 6 months and the whole game changes :)
-Vaaish

Offline Plaxor

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 10:53:18 PM »
The Jovian should never be included. Although it may be a 'novel' ship and have no notable effect on gameplay the majority of players detest it.

Besides, from a fluff standpoint a BC with full launch bays makes no sense. IN mid-size carriers should only ever be in the form of GCs.

The dominion isn't all that inspiring IMO. I'm not a huge fan of Bakka since it diverges from the other IN fleets only to cover a weakness. It is a fleet made by someone who wants to play only gunfights, but BFG demands a certain number of AC minimum for a fleet to be competitive.

As far as +1 turret goes, meh. More immunity to bombers I suppose. There are other options.

1 Carrier per 500 points? That would make it look like any other IN fleet. 1 per 1000 (or part) would be about right (most IN fleets have 8-12 bays at 1500, so this would be the lower end).


Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 02:27:31 AM »
Although if put to the vote most people would say to remove the Jovian, as with RSV vessels some people own this vessel and we can't really just tell them to go suck it, can we?

Dominion is considered quite good, IIRC. I believe (don't quote him) AndrewChristlieb is quite fond of them in particular, and as far as a support cruiser goes it is generally more useful than the current incarnation of the Mars class, due to battery range drawbacks and better turret rating, all whilst remaining cheaper.

1 per 1000pts seems a little steep, but what about 1 per 750pts as a compromise? That would basically limit you to the minimum amount you put forth whilst giving you more options at higher levels.

Lets face it, the smaller the force (up to a point...) is the more representative it should be of that particular faction/race/army/fleet. At 750pts there should be a noticeable difference in two imperial fleets, and considerably more so compared to chaos or eldar. Bakka, due too its distrust of AC should have a disproportional low amount of AC and a higher ratio of lances/battery. At the really large point values like 2000pts+, the differences between IN fleets should be almost non-existent, because they represent a large portion of what that faction can bring to bear. The current rules somewhat represent that, with reserving and point value limits being less meaningful at higher point values. So although Bakka may not field much AC in general, in a 2500pts battle they will still have a significant AC presence, by virtue of using a significant portion of fleet strength.

This has the advantage of both following the fluff quite well and of giving people more options, and people like option, amiright?

Offline Bessemer

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 02:38:22 AM »
That's probably the best proposition so far. I've already said that I'm not a fan of the Jovian, but people do have them, and it is unfair to remove them just 'cause it's not popular. Hell, the Murders not as popular as the other Chaos cruisers, but no-ones asking for that to be axed.

Lets face it, the smaller the force (up to a point...) is the more representative it should be of that particular faction/race/army/fleet. At 750pts there should be a noticeable difference in two imperial fleets, and considerably more so compared to chaos or eldar. Bakka, due too its distrust of AC should have a disproportional low amount of AC and a higher ratio of lances/battery. At the really large point values like 2000pts+, the differences between IN fleets should be almost non-existent, because they represent a large portion of what that faction can bring to bear. The current rules somewhat represent that, with reserving and point value limits being less meaningful at higher point values. So although Bakka may not field much AC in general, in a 2500pts battle they will still have a significant AC presence, by virtue of using a significant portion of fleet strength.

Very true! Though my BFG buddy an I do 3000+ games with some regularity 8)
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 02:55:21 AM »
Very true! Though my BFG buddy an I do 3000+ games with some regularity 8)

WHY DON'T WE GET TO SEE PICTURES OF THESE

Offline Bessemer

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 03:01:18 AM »
Next time he get leave I'll see to it! unfortunately, we don't know when that will be...
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 03:20:10 AM »
Why put a restriction on the ships when we already have built in restrictions with the reserve rules.

If we move the Dominion (which I do love :D) from the Bakka list and place it with the Bastion and Solar lists the cheapest you will be able to get a carrier is 455 pts for an Admech Dictator and thats assuming you take two Silurias. Most likely your going to be looking at 600+ for two standard carriers and one of the Admechs, which come with their own downfalls. In fact I would likely stick to standard reserves so 3x Silurias and a Dictator/Mars/Dominion/Exorcist puts your minimum at 520 pts and thats with 3 craptastic light cruisers, not really powergaming material. I would likely have a pair of Lunars or a Gothic Tyrant/Dominator combo and maybe an Endeavour on the low side, more likey another cruiser pair. Anyway, 695 on the low side for a Dictator and thats not taking any additional turrets.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2013, 04:28:25 AM »
Quote
If we move the Dominion (which I do love ) from the Bakka list and place it with the Bastion and Solar lists the cheapest you will be able to get a carrier is 455 pts for an Admech Dictator and thats assuming you take two Silurias.

I'd like to point out that this is a rather flawed way of looking at things. Most of the time people will have 4 cruisers in a 1500 point fleet. You are ignoring that in the course of selecting ships for the fleet people are automatically filling the requirements to reserve in other ships. You don't LOSE anything to take the reserve ship in your fleet.

Saying that the admech dictator costs you 455 points to take in a bakka fleet isn't an accurate statement because it assumes that the points used to access that dictator have no other utility or would not have been spent unless you were planning to take that dictator.
-Vaaish