BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka

[Vaaish]

Sorry, the quote I posted implies that there are differences in the hulls and their effect on how the weapons work. There are also differences in engines and turret amount. The Ret has 1 less turret and 5cm more speed. Are we assuming they downgraded the engines?

Differences, yes. Voss ships have different prows, the Emperor and Ret have different prows. There are cosmetic differences in appearance too. Lances are far more complex and consume a whole lot more energy to fire out to 60cm It's not off base to think that some of the additional power that was shunted to the rets engines is used to power the added lances.

The problem with this, game mechanic wise, is you have a ships with the same firepower as the Apoc with an extra turret and no downside for shooting over 30cm for the same point cost as the Apoc.

what downside does the apoc have at this point in the course of a normal game? When it's closing and doesn't want to turn it gets a BM and when it's within 30cm it doesn't matter. If you are concerned about the battery strength, try this instead:

Victory:                                                                      360pts

Battleship:12  Speed:15  Turns:45*  Shields:4  Turrets:5  Armor:5+/6+

Armament:                     Range/Speed    Firepower/Strength     Arc
Port Lance Battery                60cm                        4                Left
Starboard Lance Battery        60cm                        4               Right
Port Weapons Battery            60cm                        6               Left
Starboard Weapons Battery    60cm                        6              Right
Dorsal Weapons Battery           60cm                        6        Left/Front/Right
Prow NC

All it does is knock it down 1d6 against most targets over 45cm and drops the dice by 3 in a best case scenario.

[afterimagedan]

Sorry, the quote I posted implies that there are differences in the hulls and their effect on how the weapons work. There are also differences in engines and turret amount. The Ret has 1 less turret and 5cm more speed. Are we assuming they downgraded the engines?

Differences, yes. Voss ships have different prows, the Emperor and Ret have different prows. There are cosmetic differences in appearance too. Lances are far more complex and consume a whole lot more energy to fire out to 60cm It's not off base to think that some of the additional power that was shunted to the rets engines is used to power the added lances.

The problem with this, game mechanic wise, is you have a ships with the same firepower as the Apoc with an extra turret and no downside for shooting over 30cm for the same point cost as the Apoc.

what downside does the apoc have at this point in the course of a normal game? When it's closing and doesn't want to turn it gets a BM and when it's within 30cm it doesn't matter.

If it's not a big deal than we should just give the same downside to this ship as well, make the stats just how you had them earlier, and price them evenly. Not bring able to turn is a pain when you are trying to line up separate targets for your nova in the front and lances at a side target. This ship won't have that problem and will be able to line up long range ships much more easily.

I would be willing to go along with your earlier 365 version. Work with me a bit on the Vanquisher? When it comes down to it, this ship has an extra turret and no blast marker problem, unlike the Apoc, but its wbs are not as effective at longer range.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Where are we getting weapons betteries on the Victory from?

The model clearly has 3 lance bits and 0 weapons batteries.

This BTW is going way beyond a few little tweeks here, its not following the fluff nor is it sticking to the ships themself.

[afterimagedan]

Side note: I think we should make this, from page 3 of Bakka: "When used with Battlefleet Bakka, Adeptus Mechanicus capital ships may take the Fleet Defense Turrets refit for +5 points instead of rolling for it randomly on the Mechanicus Gifts table."

...into this: "When used with Battlefleet Bakka, Adeptus Mechanicus capital ships may opt to take the Fleet Defense Turrets Gift instead of any other gift. Make this decision while distributing Gifts."

[afterimagedan]

Where are we getting weapons betteries on the Victory from?

The model clearly has 3 lance bits and 0 weapons batteries.

That's part of the problem. It's silly that it gets 4 lance shots with 6 lances on the side of the model. It seems that we are trying to work that out. If it has 4 lance shots on the side, it should have 2 modules with 4 lances on the model.

This BTW is going way beyond a few little tweeks here, its not following the fluff nor is it sticking to the ships themself.

I can see that. If we want to go really barebones about it than we should just change the dorsal lances to 9 on top. It just hurts deep down that we are looking at a ship with 6 lances on both sides and they, game-wise, really are 4.

How about this:
6 lances per side @ 45cm. 9wb dorsal, NC. 20cm move, 4 turrets. This is the only way I see we can stick to this statement from Bakka that the Victory "still is not capable of delivering the level of firepower that ancient class (Apoc) was capable of," and make it true to its look and bits.  Yes, it technically does still have the FP of the Apoc, just at shorter range.

That, and this for the Vanquisher....

300
12 hits 20cm speed 4 shields 6+/5+ 4 turrets
P/S lances  4  45cm
P/S WBs     6  45cm
Torpedoes  9 

...are the best small scale changes I got.

[Bessemer]

@Dan- that's probably the most faithful to the original profile I've seen so far. The fluff does mention the Vic of being able to overcome some of the apocalypse's shortcomings. Didn't mention they had got all of them

could making the Dorsal WB's range 45cm be in the realms of posibility? It is a "modern" ship, and Imperial technology is lacking on the long range WB's. This would also help differentiate the Vic from the Apoc a little more.

[afterimagedan]

Maybe, but they may not be lacking in long ranged weapon batteries if this is a refitted Retribution. I think the 60cm dorsal is just the standard operating procedure so I would prefer keeping it that way with the victory.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Side note: I think we should make this, from page 3 of Bakka: "When used with Battlefleet Bakka, Adeptus Mechanicus capital ships may take the Fleet Defense Turrets refit for +5 points instead of rolling for it randomly on the Mechanicus Gifts table."

...into this: "When used with Battlefleet Bakka, Adeptus Mechanicus capital ships may opt to take the Fleet Defense Turrets Gift instead of any other gift. Make this decision while distributing Gifts."

"When used with Battlefleet Bakka, Adeptus Mechanicus capital ships may opt to take the Fleet Defense Turrets Gift in the same manner as if it had rolled a 6 for leadership. Make this decision before rolling for Gifts." This keeps people from rolling to see what they get and then having the ability to ignore it and take the FDT instead.

That's part of the problem. It's silly that it gets 4 lance shots with 6 lances on the side of the model. It seems that we are trying to work that out. If it has 4 lance shots on the side, it should have 2 modules with 4 lances on the model.

Desolator

I can see that. If we want to go really barebones about it than we should just change the dorsal lances to 9 on top. It just hurts deep down that we are looking at a ship with 6 lances on both sides and they, game-wise, really are 4.

How about this:
6 lances per side @ 45cm. 9wb dorsal, NC. 20cm move, 4 turrets. This is the only way I see we can stick to this statement from Bakka that the Victory "still is not capable of delivering the level of firepower that ancient class (Apoc) was capable of," and make it true to its look and bits.  Yes, it technically does still have the FP of the Apoc, just at shorter range.

Ya, ok that sounds pretty good. 365, 355 with 9 Torpedoes? (BFG-R Retribution equivalent with a Nova.)

That, and this for the Vanquisher....

300
12 hits 20cm speed 4 shields 6+/5+ 4 turrets
P/S lances  4  45cm
P/S WBs     6  45cm
Torpedoes  9 

Good, a bit too good . This feels more like a ~320.

...are the best small scale changes I got.
[/quote]

@Dan- that's probably the most faithful to the original profile I've seen so far. The fluff does mention the Vic of being able to overcome some of the apocalypse's shortcomings. Didn't mention they had got all of them

could making the Dorsal WB's range 45cm be in the realms of posibility? It is a "modern" ship, and Imperial technology is lacking on the long range WB's. This would also help differentiate the Vic from the Apoc a little more.

Ok, At what strength? were looking at most battleships having 9wb@60cm now so what would a 45cm battery look like, 12? That seems like a bit much... Ive got to say the 9wb@60 and 6l@45 really make me want to bust one of these out with a Retribution 9wb@60cm, 3l@60cm + 18wb@45cm and 6l@45cm + 18 Torpedoes!!! 0_0 Im talking Retribution, Victory, 5x Siluria, Dictator, Fleet Admiral, Some extra turrets......

[afterimagedan]

Exactly what I was thinking on the Victory. 365, 355 with torps. And yes, you have me on the Desolator thing. I even like the desolator... But chaos is much more... messy about things....  We can give them a pass for that. As far as His Emperor's Holy Imperial Navy, we must make it orderly. 

Anyways, glad you like those stats. I'll look into Vanquisher point values again tomorrow.

[Bessemer]

@andrew- was thinking 9. Just throwing it out there as Imp's batteries are lower quality than chaos, but if a Victory is made from a reconditioned Ret (ie. ancient) it's weapons would be of better Provenance.

 But yeah, the Vic's looking pretty good with that profile . Spam those light cruisers!

[Vaaish]

I need sleep, but I'll try to comment on the Victory tomrrow. Short version, adding the extra WB is suspposed to reduce the number of lance turrets that need power to reduce stress on the conduits and allow the ship to fire out to 60cm. The IN has no shortage of 60cm WB on battleships. Cruisers, yes it's a bit sparse but BB are where you get 60cm WB regularly.

I can accept 365 points for the vic.

[afterimagedan]

Consolidating the profiles:

Victory
365
12 hits 20cm speed 4 shields 6+/5+ 4 turrets
P/S lances  6  45cm
Dorsal WBs  9  60cm
Nova cannon (-10pts to switch to 9 torps)


Vanquisher
320
12 hits 20cm speed 4 shields 6+/5+ 4 turrets
P/S lances  4  45cm
P/S WBs     6  45cm
Torpedoes  9

Andrew, Bessemer, and I seem to be up for it. Anyone else? Vaaish?

Also, anyone know why the light cruisers in Bakka are 5 points less with an additional turret? Will they now just be taking the IN version? If not, what should the note in the Bakka fleet list look like so people know of the difference?

[horizon]

Test (for Dan)

[Vaaish]

Up the p/s lances to 60cm on the victory. Of all the weapons that we can figure they'd want to fix from the apoc to fire long rane, the lances are it.

[afterimagedan]

Vaaish, then you just have a super apoc. That's lame. Everyone who used an apoc will grumble about it because there is now just a better apoc in the bakka list. I would prefer having the apoc stay the best at long range lanced.