BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka

[afterimagedan]

Here's my Vanquisher.
20cm movement. 5 turrets.
Wbs 12 30cm sides.
2 30cm lances per side.
9 torps.  = 300pts.

Way more close range. Torpedoes: instead of nova. No dorsal. Poor mans Ret. It has its uses as a partial battleship but needs to get in close. I propose this along with my Victory version.

Lance 4 per side 45
Wb 6 per side. 45cm
wb 9 dorsal 60cm
Nova. Can switch to torps.

Similar but flipped retribution. Lances on side instead of top. Less wbs on side but dorsal instead. Nova instead of torps. Can switch to torps.

[horizon]

In the original bakka thread many just said: remove that battleship. Lol

[afterimagedan]

I think those options are better than just removing it.

[afterimagedan]

Vanquisher.
20cm movement. 5 turrets.
Wbs 12 30cm sides.
2 30cm lances per side.
9 torps.  = 300pts.

Victory
Lance 4 per side 45
Wb 6 per side. 45cm
wb 9 dorsal 60cm
Nova. Can switch to torps like it currently can at -10pts.

Any takers?

[Vaaish]

Not particularly fond of either profile. Vanquisher seems fairly useless for the cost and victory doesn't seem to fit the fluff as an attempt to replicate the apoc; it is just the current vanquisher with a dorsal battery and higher point cost.

[afterimagedan]

Here's the problem I think we are running into.

1. We want to stick to the victory fluff which says it's a modified apoc.
2. If we get close to making it like an apoc, people just say it's too close to an apoc.

Victory fluff:  "In internal layout, the Victory class shares many similarities with Retribution, and Imperial Navy analysts speculate the design is a byproduct of grafting lance weaponry onto the improved power conduits and relays of the Retribution template in an attempt to replicate the Apocalypse battleship class while overcoming various shortfalls inherent with that ancient design."

I actually think that profile fits this perfectly without stepping on the apoc's toes. Still shares "similarities with Retribution" but also similarities with the apoc too.

Also, tinkering with the cost of the Vanquisher, the cost is more appropriate at 290.

[AndrewChristlieb]

No Imperial or Chaos battleships under 300.

With the Victory just go ahead and leave it as-is in the Bakka list.

This fits it in nicely under the Apoc at -20 pts, -4 lances, -3 weapons, +5cm speed, +no blast marker. Its not the price I would like or perfectly suited to its role but thats fine as its also the only option for Bakka to get a ranged battleship.

Vanquisher: I really dislike having an Emperor/Retribution bastard hull.

This would look better and be more fitting to the 300pt cost and general fluffiness if it was setup similar to the Armada Oberon -Launch, range, and +1 leadership

Vanquisher:                                                                      300pts

Battleship:12  Speed:15  Turns:45*  Shields:4  Turrets:5  Armor:5+

Armament:                     Range/Speed    Firepower/Strength     Arc
Port Lance Battery                45cm                        4                Left
Starboard Lance Battery        45cm                        4               Right
Port Weapons Battery            45cm                        6               Left
Starboard Weapons Battery    45cm                        6              Right
Prow Weapons Battery           45cm                        5        Left/Front/Right
Dorsal Weapons Battery         45cm                        5        Left/Front/Right

[afterimagedan]

I would so much rather go with my vanquisher version with 45cm lances at 310pts. I can't see someone taking a 45cm gunship that moves 15cm with no ordnance. I'm sticking to my guns on my victory idea.

[afterimagedan]

We could make the vanquisher 15cm movement and make it the long range battery ship. Could be like the.original retribution stats with no dorsal and FLR wbs on the front like the.emperor. 12 wb 60cm per side. 6 wb 45-60cm FLR. Emperor model, no dorsal turrets. All wb sides.

[Vaaish]

You are missing what that bit of fluff you quoted is getting at. The first three words make it plain that we are talking about internal similarity to the retribution, not particularly in load out. In function the thing is supposed to be closer to the apoc but without the power difficulties firing the apoc lances.

Of any of these, the victory should be at 60cm not 45cm. Even if that means it goes down to 15cm speed.

[afterimagedan]

Nothing says it needs to be 60cm. If you make a battleship with 6 60cm lances, you basically have an apoc. Let's make something different. There should still be some ret similarities I think because it is a return hull, that's my point.

[Vaaish]

Nothing says it needs to be 60cm. If you make a battleship with 6 60cm lances, you basically have an apoc. Let's make something different. There should still be some ret similarities I think because it is a return hull, that's my point.

Since the fluff for this ship says it's trying to replicate the Apoc not the Ret, lets make something that fits the fluff be that different or similar. The point about hull is a moot one. All IN BB are effectively based on the same hull, it's the innards and weapons that change them.

Victory:                                                                      365pts

Battleship:12  Speed:15  Turns:45*  Shields:4  Turrets:5  Armor:5+/6+

Armament:                     Range/Speed    Firepower/Strength     Arc
Port Lance Battery                60cm                        4                Left
Starboard Lance Battery        60cm                        4               Right
Port Weapons Battery            60cm                        6               Left
Starboard Weapons Battery    60cm                        6              Right
Dorsal Weapons Battery           60cm                        9        Left/Front/Right
Prow NC

The ship trades 4 lances for 12wb, giving it effectively the same firepower as the apoc without the downsides caused by the full 6x 60cm lance armament. The only problem with this is that it overlaps the vanquisher although less so than giving the victory 45cm arms and trying to make it ret.

[afterimagedan]

Sorry, the quote I posted implies that there are differences in the ship hull types and their effect on how the weapons work. There are also differences in engines and turret amount. The Ret has 1 less turret and 5cm more speed. Are we assuming they downgraded the engines?

The quote implies that the hull effects the way the ship works. They tried to turn a ret into an apoc. I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that it will have similaries of both.

[afterimagedan]

The ship trades 4 lances for 12wb, giving it effectively the same firepower as the apoc without the downsides caused by the full 6x 60cm lance armament. The only problem with this is that it overlaps the vanquisher although less so than giving the victory 45cm arms and trying to make it ret.

The problem with this, game mechanic wise, is you have a ships with the same firepower as the Apoc with an extra turret and no downside for shooting over 30cm for the same point cost as the Apoc. This ship just trumps the Apoc with those stats. WB 4 at 60cm on the side may be more appropriate without giving it some "insufficiently powered" like problem.

[afterimagedan]

Alright, here's a second crack at the Vanquisher, trying to make it usable.

300
12 hits 20cm speed 4 shields 6+/5+ 4 turrets
P/S lances  4  45cm
P/S WBs     6  45cm
Torpedoes  9 

This is -1 turret, down to 45cm on the batteries, but plus 3 torps and 5cm movement. Similar to the Desolator but with different uses.