BFG:R Battlefleet Bakka

[afterimagedan]

I would like to just integrate the Bakka stuff into the IN document, that way we have all the IN style ships and each Battlefleet list in the same document. Anyone have any thoughts about what we should do with Bakka? What changes do we need to make to it?

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well, Victory: Dorsal weapons battery at 6 or 9? Also how does everyone feel about the pricing on this one? Its basically an /Apoc -2 lances a side and +5cm speed, oh and it has no downfall for shooting over 30cm, currently at 345pts (-10pts to swap the nova for 9 torps).

I am not a fan of the Vanquisher even being an option, I breaks too many battleship standards as is and really isnt needed.

Jovian... well, its not a terrable little ship but it has a bad history and once again breaks from the norm.

Dominion fits in nicely as is, these should be available to other fleets as standard.

Mercury breaks from the norm again and it has a slew of special rules to boot.

Siluria seems ok.

Havoc is another that breaks the mould, although the shipo its self isnt bad.

Vipers are fine.

Rath is overpriced as always and being the only way to get the Emperor he should be looked at, also in relation to the fleet commander repricing.

5pt turrets would be fine if the list didnt have great carrier options, maybe move the Dominion to other lists and off of here? That would leave the Jovian as reserve and the Emperor w/Rath as the only options for carriers (and Admech Dictators of course).

Admech get fleet defense turrets for +5 pts instead of a random option seems ok.

Anything else?

[Bessemer]

Well, Victory: Dorsal weapons battery at 6 or 9? Also how does everyone feel about the pricing on this one? Its basically an /Apoc -2 lances a side and +5cm speed, oh and it has no downfall for shooting over 30cm, currently at 345pts (-10pts to swap the nova for 9 torps).
9 seems OK to me, as does the cost
I am not a fan of the Vanquisher even being an option, I breaks too many battleship standards as is and really isnt needed.
More of a fluff thing IIRC, it's inclusion is more to do with finding cheap replacements to cover losses from Macragge than anything else. But, yaeh, not a fan. What about giving it the carrier option from the original BFGR?
Jovian... well, its not a terrable little ship but it has a bad history and once again breaks from the norm.
I see it as a character ship for the Bakka list, so it relly should be there. Again, tho, not a fan. had one back in the day, soon turned it into an Armageddon
Dominion fits in nicely as is, these should be available to other fleets as standard.
Yep
Mercury breaks from the norm again and it has a slew of special rules to boot.
Used for hunting pirates and such in lue of carriers so it fits fluff-wise. I do actually like this ship, but like you say it does break from the norm. Not always a bad thing though
Siluria seems ok.
Anyone in favour of it's original stats? (as is minus the front battery, 90pts)
Havoc is another that breaks the mould, although the shipo its self isnt bad.
Would it be as is, or swap with the one from the Chaos list?
Vipers are fine.
Yep
Rath is overpriced as always and being the only way to get the Emperor he should be looked at, also in relation to the fleet commander repricing.
Agreed, but my head for figures is bad, what would be a better price?
5pt turrets would be fine if the list didnt have great carrier options, maybe move the Dominion to other lists and off of here? That would leave the Jovian as reserve and the Emperor w/Rath as the only options for carriers (and Admech Dictators of course).
Not sure on that, means you would have to field just those ships to get AC, limiting the chioces you could play. One Dominion/Dictator per 500pts? 750pts?
Admech get fleet defense turrets for +5 pts instead of a random option seems ok.
Yep

[horizon]

Hi,

All in all: Jovian out.

The Compendium 2010 list came out okay I think.

[afterimagedan]

I would personally like to keep it as is. I like the Jovian    I think the turret option is there because of the limited options for carriers (restricted choice is a negative to the turret option as a positive). I am not against the mold breaking these ships have committed.

I really have a hard time just dropping things, especially if that were in the 2010 rules and people may have made models for them.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Dont drop anything then, lets fix stuff.

Victory: The only problem I see with this is that it makes the Apoc obsolete, luckly now its only available to Bakka and should remain as such. Change the dorsal to 9wb@60cm, with those stats I think it should fall in at 355, 345 with Torps.

Vanquisher: Is this an Emperor or Retribution hull, it looks like a mix, anyway... This is an oddball, it looks like an Emperor with lances instead of launch, I think Id drop the weapons range to match the lances and boost the torps up to 9. Leave the dorsal empty and price it at 325, give it the BFG-R option to swap its torps and 6+ prow for 4 launch bays.

Leave the Jovian as is, move the Dominion to the Bastion/ Solar fleet lists.

This leaves our carrier options as:
*Freely available
Vanquisher (battleship requirements, BFG-R upgrade)
Emperor (Rath, battleship requirements)
Admech Dictator (battlecruiser requirements)
Admech Defiant (battlecruiser requirements)

*Reserves
Emperor (battleship requirements)
Exorcist (grandcruiser requirements)
Jovian (battlecruiser requirements)
Mars (battlecruiser requirements)
Dominion (battlecruiser requirements)
Dictator
Defiant

Im sure Im missing some here but this seems like plenty of options for carriers.

Mercury: 255pts

Cruiser/8 Speed/25 Turns/45* Shields/2 Armor/6+|5+ Turrets 2

Weapons: 6@45cm 4@60cm port and starboard
Lances: 2@60cm dorsal L/F/R
Nova: 1 Prow

Special explosion any ideas? I think it should just roll 6 for a plasma instead of 4 and 12 for a warp instead of 8 since it has battleship powerplants instead of rolling 3d6 for catastrophic.

Rath:
Leadership 10
2 rerolls
+1 when defending against boarding
ship refit
weapons refit

This certainly doesnt seem like its worth the same as Abbadon but anything less than 150 seems a bit low.

[Vaaish]

What specifically is your goal with these changes? Bakka isn't perfect but I don't see that most of these ships require the changes you are proposing.

If the victory is Baka only it doesn't make the apoc obsolete since you are fielding different fleets and I dare say different type of ships with the Baka turret boost.

Part of the point of Baka is to have a low ac fleet, why would you give the vanquisher the option to get launch bays? Also what other IN battleships lack dorsal weapons?

[AndrewChristlieb]

What specifically is your goal with these changes? Bakka isn't perfect but I don't see that most of these ships require the changes you are proposing.

Theyre really just minor tweaks to pull the ships more inline with the other options.

If the victory is Baka only it doesn't make the apoc obsolete since you are fielding different fleets and I dare say different type of ships with the Baka turret boost.

Right, thats why I said it should remain Bakka only, the change on the dorsal weapons is just to bring it in line with the other battleships (except the Emperor?) which went to 9wb.

Part of the point of Baka is to have a low ac fleet, why would you give the vanquisher the option to get launch bays? Also what other IN battleships lack dorsal weapons?

Im going off whats already out there, BFG-R already has the Vanq with the option to swap prow for launch, and its never had dorsal weapons. I imagine this is something to do with the fluff which states that the weapons systems were stripped at one point. Im not sure where the idea for the prow launch came from, but its always nice to have options this could be deleated tho. Edit: the Vanq originally had launch bays that were replaced in favor of torpedoes according to its listing in the additional ships compandium.

[Vaaish]

Hmm.. Other options within the bakka fleet or comparative to the rest of the in bb?

Is there any specific issue with the victory that warrants the boost in the dorsal wb? I don't see the value in boosting weapon strength on it and then upping the points to match. That seems more like a tweak for the sake of tweaking than to solve an problem with the ship.

I definitely wouldn't allow the lb to make a return in Baka. It partially compromises the purpose of the bakka fleet. I also don't understand the reasoning of dropping a slow bb to only 45cm weapons, giving it three more torp strength and boosting the cost by 25 points with the option to straight swap for the lb. What the ship has going for it is a pretty cheap battleship with good mid range firepower and near immunity to ac. You have to shoot the thing and you still have to strip 4 shields on that 6+ prow armor.

[afterimagedan]

I like a lot of what you are suggesting, Andrew.  A few tweaks to the Victory and Vanquisher that make them more in line with the layout of usual cruisers seems fine to me. Maybe not the launch bay one.

I would personally like to keep the Dominion and Jovian just how they are and not in the other fleets, same with the Mercury.  Andrew, what makes you want to tweak the Mercury?

Let's match the admirals in Bakka to the regular IN fleets and make Rath 150pts.

[horizon]

Vaaish: the dorsal wb to 9 is a general BFG:R thing iirc. The standard value for all dorsal wb's on battleships.

The launch option on the Vanquisher can be gone imo.

[Plaxor]

Horizon is right about the WB: 9. This was a minor 'quirk-fix' that seems to have echoed on.

As far as the LB variant of the Vanquisher, it was mainly intended as a carrier option for my 'Wardens' fleet list--which was heavy on escorts. Thematically the Wardens fleet was designed to be a torpedo/gun light fleet and more AC heavy than typical IN, to represent what a 'pirate hunting' fleet may look like. Also the Vanquisher is historically known to have a LB prow.

[Brethren]

If there's going to be a entry for the Havoc class frigate in Bakka and Chaos fleets... match it please.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Victory is the same value as a BBB Retribution, I would say it should be boosted to 345 with Torps and 355 with Nova with dorsal 6wb too.

Vanq can drop the launch, Im not a fan of Bakka getting a lot of options there either just pointing out that it has already been an option. Its not a 300 point ship right now, actually in BFG-R its already been boosted to 320pts, it also has 20cm speed in BFG-R, which is why I thought bringing the weapons and torps to Retribution range would fit better.

The Mercury is ok, I just dont get why its easier for it to explode, but the explosion isnt any stronger when the fluff makes it sound like it should be. I would be ok with it staying as is if everyone else thinks its ok tho.

Dominion does not fit with Bakka, Armageddon or Bastion sure but not Bakka. There should be no carriers they can just take, they should all have a catch.

[Vaaish]

BFGR seems to have crept a bit wider than a few tweaks here and there goal it had when I was here a few months ago. There seem to be significant changes to some of the ships and some other additions.