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Author Topic: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet  (Read 4472 times)

Offline afterimagedan

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Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« on: February 12, 2013, 10:00:02 PM »
I would like to bring up a discussion on AndrewChristlieb's CSM fleet list because I think it's awesome and would love to see it included in BFG:R, after whatever refinements we want to make. The following is Andrew's original list, plus I made some additions and notes which I will put in bold.

Fleet commander:
0-1 CSM Warmaster (Ld 10)........... 50 pts
0-3 Fleet Commander re-rolls......... 25 pts
Mark of Slaanesh.......................... 15 pts
-Forces of Chaos: Veil of Lust......... 20 pts
-Forces of Chaos: Siren’s Summon.. 25 pts
Mark of Khorne............................. 15 pts
-Forces of Chaos: Bezerker Tide...... Free
Mark of Tzeentch.......................... 25 pts
-Forces of Chaos: Warp Beasts....... 25 pts
-Forces of Chaos: Strand of Fortune. 25 pts
Mark of Nurgle.............................. 25 pts
-Forces of Chaos: Hives of Nurgle.... 10 pts
-Forces of Chaos: Ark of Pestilence.. 5 pts
Mark of Chaos Undivided................ 25 pts
Terminator Teleport Assault............ 10 pts (Battleships and Grand cruisers only)

Battleships:

Desecrator………………………….... 390 pts
Despoiler: ……………………………… 425 pts I assume this is basically the Vengeful Spirit now with all the CSM stuff added in?
add in the Relictor
Chaos Battle Barge:……………….. 445 pts
(0-1)Conqueror……………………… 380 pts
(0-1)Wage of Sin……………………. 430 pts
(0-1)Terminus Est…………………… 430 pts
(0-1)Scion of Prospero……….…… 450 pts

Grand Cruisers:
Nephilim……………………………….. 275 pts
Retaliator………………………………. 300 pts
Heavy Cruisers:
Styx……………………………………….. 285 pts
Hecate…………………………………… 255 pts
0-12 Cruisers:
Devastation…………………………… 215 pts
Slaughter………………………………. 190 pts
Heretic………………………………….. 145 pts
Schismatic…………………………….. 145 pts
Unbeliever……………………………. 150 pts

Escorts:
Iconoclast…………………………….. 30 pts
Infidel…………………………………… 45 pts
Idolator………………………………… 45 pts

Would the CSM list have +1 to H&Rs? My assumption is that the CSM list bombers would have more attack craft but no resilient stuff.

AndrewC is reviewing the list again and will probably post it here. Just an update!

Offline Talos

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 06:08:15 AM »
I would like to note that I would love for this list to be included, but have not had the time to think of suggestions as of yet.

Offline Brethren

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 11:08:11 AM »
Would the CSM list have +1 to H&Rs?
Since every ship gets their own bunch of CSM, yes they would.

My assumption is that the CSM list bombers would have more attack craft but no resilient stuff.
I don't get what you're implying here. CSM would be able to switch their attack craft to Thunderhawks as usual.

I've got a strange uneasy feeling with this list. On one hand it feels right to focus on carriers, on the other hand it feels limited. But I guess I have to live with that. Plus I'd love to see a handful of Khorne Idolators to H&R and board the hell out of something. ;D

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 02:26:14 PM »
Im still mulling this over. The Relictor is basically the Conqueror except cheaper and better right? What are we doing about that? The CSM barge is listed under the VS options yes.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 06:03:58 PM »
I think we should have the Relictor have the same stats as that Conqueror but without all the Khorne upgrades and CSM.

The Conqueror  has its special character flare in the Berzerker Horde, and that should be the bonus of taking it, on top of the CSM and Mark of Khorne yit should get for a better than normal price.

Should we make the Relictor the same, stat wise? I think so.

Doing some owrk with stats and points and smotherman, etc, the Relictor is definitely overpriced. With the Conqueror stats + no CTNH + improved thrusters, should be 300pt, just like the Desolator. The Conqueror does seem to still have the right price. 80 pts more for CSM, Mark of Khorne, Terminators, and Berzerkers. I do think it woudl be fitting to throw Improved Thrusters in there though.

I also think the Desecrator should be made into the Wages of Sin but without all the good stuff it gets and at a lower price.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 06:35:16 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 02:39:07 AM »
Well seein how Khorne is the only god that doesnt have two special abilities in the FAQ2010 Powers of Chaos maybe a second is in order? A simple boost to speed would be fitting and easily implemented.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 02:58:11 AM »
So let's do the improved thrusters. What do you think about the stat changes and point changes stuff?

Offline Brethren

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 09:01:59 AM »
I also think the Desecrator should be made into the Wages of Sin but without all the good stuff it gets and at a lower price.
Basing the unique ships on a actual battleship class is a good idea... logical and less room for errors. Still takes a bit of unique out of unique.

What kind of cost are we talking about? 360? 350? I think it's quite important, because the Wage of Sin is almost equipped as the Despoiler class, but would be considerably cheaper then. The Despoilers option to switch 2 launch bays to 9 torpedo tubes would also go to waste, since it would have almost the same armament as the Wage of Sin but at higher cost.
My conclusion (in case the Despoiler stays at ~400pts): Either the Desecrator gets priced around 380 pts or it should remain with 4 launch bays. The Wage of Sin can keep its 6 bays then... back to unique. ;)

I've got the same concern about the Relictor and the Desolator. Until now, you had two possible reasons to field a Desolator. Either you wanted a really cheap battleship or you wanted a fast ship to khorne-board the enemy fleet. With that in mind you were o.k. with the lack of guns the Desolator has.
If we're going to sell the Relictor at 300pts we kill the Desolator, since the serious punch of the Relictor is much more valuable than a couple of long range lances.
Since the Desolator can't (shouldn't) get any cheaper and the Relictor mounts a capable fast&furious-package, I'd price it at 320 or 330.

/edit: Oh, right. Traitor Legion discussion... all point costs above considered without CSM. ;D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 11:28:48 AM by Brethren »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 08:38:53 PM »
Until now, you had two possible reasons to field a Desolator. Either you wanted a really cheap battleship or you wanted a fast ship to khorne-board the enemy fleet. With that in mind you were o.k. with the lack of guns the Desolator has.

Actually, I think there is a third reason in there and it is the main reason I use the Desolator: cheap long ranged lances.  Combine that with the durability you get from the Battleship and the 9 torpedoes (rare for Chaos), the Desolator is a good ship.  Using it as a Khorne vessel to rush in there isn't the best option for it because you are spending a lot of its points on making those lances long range.  Keep in mind, the lances on the Desolator as opposed to the Relictor can lock on and fire sometimes two more turns on top of the Relictors because of the range, AND it doesn't have to worry about closing in to do it or passing the enemy fleet and losing arc of fire. 

I have looked with a skeptical eye at the two ships, but the 4 lances at 60cm on the side make it a fantastic side-scrolling ship, and that is how I have been using it for a long time.  The Relictor doesn't have the luxury and has to close to be effective. This makes it much more vulnerable to fire, and will make it much less effective in earlier games (despite the dorsal wb9 which won't probably do a ton).

Compare the Slaughter to the Acheron. The Slaughter is 25pts less and has serious firepower. Imagine how much firepower it would have at 190pts.  This is sort of the same think I am talking about.

Offline horizon

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 08:45:50 PM »
The Desolator is cool, sleek, cheap(!), fast and long range support gunnery. My fave Chaos battleship... by far!

Desolator-Carnage-Acheron-Devestation are an incredible supporting aspect within the Chaos fleet. Add them together and keep your broadside at thy enemy.

The Acheron is the best mid-range cruiser Chaos has.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 08:58:08 PM »
The Desolator is cool, sleek, cheap(!), fast and long range support gunnery. My fave Chaos battleship... by far!

Desolator-Carnage-Acheron-Devestation are an incredible supporting aspect within the Chaos fleet. Add them together and keep your broadside at thy enemy.

The Acheron is the best mid-range cruiser Chaos has.

I LOVE Acherons. Lock on two of those suckers and watch things die.

Offline Brethren

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 09:16:55 PM »
Keep in mind, the lances on the Desolator as opposed to the Relictor can lock on and fire sometimes two more turns on top of the Relictors because of the range, AND it doesn't have to worry about closing in to do it or passing the enemy fleet and losing arc of fire.

Point taken. I rarely considered taking a Desolator, mainly because it's quite easy to get mid to long range lances into a chaos fleet.

I've got a friend who worked out a ship formula of his own, similar to smotherman's. He added some things and it has worked out quite well until now. (e.g. costs for different firing arcs) I'll ask him to run the numbers of the Desecrator and the Relictor.

My secret hopes are with the Desecrator, though. I like all-round ships. That said... I don't need an Acheron. I fell in love with the Hecate the moment I saw it. A Carrier with the broadside firepower of a Hades. :P

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 10:25:49 PM »
Yep, Hecate is awesome. Let me know what you guys find out.

Offline horizon

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2013, 05:32:56 AM »
I have issues. :(

When I talk Chaos or IN I always talk about the blue book / armada ships. I just can't get these new types into my head.
Weird.

Offline Brethren

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Re: Chaos Traitor Legions Fleet
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2013, 10:02:16 AM »
Since cruiser love storys and battleship details are a bit off topic, I took the liberty to carry on in the original BFG:R Chaos tread.