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Author Topic: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise  (Read 3286 times)

Offline ElectricPaladin

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Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« on: February 12, 2013, 04:33:03 AM »
After my "cool" idea to convert some leftover bits into a Space Marine Venerable Battlebarge (we'll see how this works out in practice), I decided that I need to build a fleet list. I have, so far, had a hard time with Space Marine lists. There doesn't seem to be a lot of variety, and it's hard to get the weapons you need. That said, I think I'd have fun playing this list... assuming it doesn't suck.

That's where you come in.

What do you think?

1500 Points (Dominion List)

Master of the Fleet (Ld 10) w/2 Re-Rolls

Nemesis-Class Venerable Battlebarge w/Terminator Assault Party

Mars-Class Battlecruiser w/Space Marine Captain, Honor Guard

2 Space Marine Strike Cruisers w/Additional Shield
1 Space Marine Strike Cruiser (Prow Bombardment Cannon Variant) w/Additional Shield

3 Hunter-Class Destroyers

My ordnance is a little weak, but even a Strength-6 salvo has the potential to ruin an opponent's day, especially on a platform that can make 90° turns. I can put out an astonishing number of bombardment cannon shots (total strength = 14) and many squads of attack craft (6 Fighter/Assault Boats, 4 Fighters or Bombers)

The way I see it, this list rams itself directly down the enemy's throat, following the aforementioned salvo of ordinance, with thunderhawks on CAP, delivering hit-and-runs to anything that gets close or escorting bombers to their targets. Then, we hope that this many bombardment cannons can win the day, with boarding action and teleport attacks as an option if I'm fighting the right kind of opponent (read: anyone not better than space marines at boarding actions).

And yet, in a pinch, this fleet can also function at range, with attack craft to bridge the distance and range 45 and 60 weapons and lances and a nova cannon... it leaves my strike cruisers out of the equation, but I can play cagier with this list, if I feel like it.

I imagine that this list will struggle with scenarios that force me to split the fleet, but be vicious in straight-up victor point battles, in which I'll be able to dominate.

One thing I'm already not sure of - that strike cruiser with additional bombardment cannons. I may actually want torpedoes on that. Bombardment cannons are neat, but more torpedos? And a true capital ship to fly with the hunters? That's appealing, too.

Anyway, in general, what do you think?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 04:34:43 AM by ElectricPaladin »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 04:38:46 AM »
Your ordnance is definitely NOT weak. I assume you meant torpedoes. If you want this to be a more "ram ram his down your throat" list and have more torpedoes, swap the mars for an Armageddon. This will give you some more points for who knows what.

And trust me, the gun variant strike cruisers are definitely worth it. Keep it how it is.

Offline ElectricPaladin

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Re: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 04:41:17 AM »
Your ordnance is definitely NOT weak. I assume you meant torpedoes. If you want this to be a more "ram ram his down your throat" list and have more torpedoes, swap the mars for an Armageddon. This will give you some more points for who knows what.

And trust me, the gun variant strike cruisers are definitely worth it. Keep it how it is.

So you think six torpedos from the hunters is enough for me to hang back if I feel like it? And you'd, consequently, recommend the bombardment cannon strike cruiser? I'd think given the greater range of this list - and yes, now that I look at it, its capacity to play "smart aggression" rather than "balls out aggression" is greater than I'd initially suspected, especially with that nova cannon - I'd want to go for a total of 12-Strength of torpedos.

Offline Talos

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Re: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 05:23:55 PM »
Let's face it: the SM fleet is not well designed for long range combat. It suffers from very low lance counts, average range and many bonuses that are only applicable at close range, such as boarding and hit and runs teleports.

Their strengths are their bombardment cannons, which are ludicrously destructive at point blank. The thunderhawks, who although small in number are very versatile and obnoxious to kill. Their maneuverability and speed, which are higher than human average. And their resilience, which is close to the highest in the game.

Check out Seahawk's winning fleet from adepticon last year (or the one before?).

Master of The Fleet

Optimus Opprimere Battle Barge
3 x Strike Cruiser w/ Extra shield and Bombardment Cannons
3 x Strike cruiser w/ Extra Shield

Simple and brutal. As you can see the fleet utilizes its ordnance to launch pre-preemptive attacks and ward of enemy bombers whilst closing, and then catches the opponent in a withering crossfire of over 30+ strength of bombardment cannons.

Your choices increase the range of the fleet significantly but water down its primary focus. Problem is, at least on paper your fleet is not especially good at either form of combat any more.

So you need to look at what is causing the problem. You have two non-SM standard vessels, your nemesis and the mars. The nemesis gives you the most t-hawks on one vessel possible, but you lose out on any significant firepower. IIRC, it only has an average lance or battery on it. And since it is helpless up close, it will have to stay back from your main fleet, meaning it's AC will have to travel further making less relevant and useful. You would be probably better off with an Emperor in that role, if only because at least it could fire a useful quantity of batteries from it's backstage spot. Your best option for this role is probably a despoiler battleship, as not only does it have strong ordnance but it can put out a strong torrent of long range battery and lance fire to support your fleet. The Mars I feel is probably the biggest culprit, however. It is your only Nova Cannon and is thus unreliable, and even with the new BFG:R lock on rules it will hardly benefit due to its need to reload ordnance every turn. It's batteries are not strong enough to really contribute once it closes, and it's paltry t-hawk contribution is not really that useful when a basic strike cruiser provides as much. As Dan mentioned you more likely to get mileage out of the Armageddon, and you can even keep your single Nova if you want because few ships lock on as frequently as the Armageddon. Another solid choice is the Dominion from battlefleet bakka, which will save you a few points and provides more lances than the mars.

If you hypothetically swap in a despoiler and an armageddon (torpedo version), you would lose out on a NC and 4 T-Hawks, leaving your total at 4+2+2=8, a pretty respectable amount for SM. But you have gained significant ranged firepower (2 lances at 60cm and 2 lances and 6 battery at 45cm from the armageddon, 10 battery and 3 lances from the despoiler) and tightened up your fleets overall effectiveness.

If you took the armageddon, you could consider swapping your bombardment variant back to stock to shore up your ordnance capabilities. You could also shrink your thunderhawk size by one to add a str9 torpedo volley from the despoiler. That's a pretty good bargain IMO. If you took a dominion instead of a mars as, you could probably afford to convert an extra strike cruiser to the bombardment version for that extra close range punch.

No matter what you do, if you save enough points here and there (looking at you, terminator and honour guard ;D) you could and should throw in more hunters, or a small nova squadron. Both rank amongst the best escorts in the game, and a 5 man hunter squadron will be a massive headache for your opponent due to their striking range.

Hope this helps, feel free to do your own thing if you disagree! ;)

Offline ElectricPaladin

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Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 07:50:32 PM »
First thanks for your well thought out response. It was so comprehensive I actually had to take notes!

I don't know if this changes anything but keep in mind that the Mars would not have thunderhawks - only Space Marine ships can have those. The Mars would have bombers and ordinary fighters. My thought was that the Mars would exclusively launch bombers, which could then be protected by the overwhelming number of thunderhawks. That would let me play very aggressively with my attack craft.

Anyway... It's starting to look like I don't really want to start Space Marines at all. Even though I have awesome conversion ideas and would love to have a fleet to complement my tabletop Blood Angels, I don't really want a second fleet that wants to drive right through the enemy. My Imperial Navy already does that, and additionally doesn't suffer from a total lack of long-range options and tactical flexibility. Frankly I think Space Marines would bore me after a while If they really are that limited.

So... unless anyone disagrees or has more wisdom to share, it looks like I'll be starting Eldar next instead. Thanks anyway.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 08:16:49 PM »
The only thought I have is that you could possibly switch your IN fleet to a more long ranged version (as much as I cringe to advise that...  :o ). I am not sure if you have magnetized your IN or anything like that but it wouldn't be  that hard to adopt a more long ranged IN fleet.  That would allow you to work on a more in-your-face SM fleet, assuming that is what you want to do.  I am working on a second SM fleet that is going to focus a lot on thunderhawks so it will not be as in your face.  The thunderhawks themselves will provide a really nasty looming wave that will be something that will make the enemy fleet focus on even more than my guns which are closing fast. Anyways, you could do something like that for a Blood Angel fleet.

Other than that, I highly recommend MMS Eldar.  I can't recommend MMS enough. It made my original complaints of BFG disappear quickly, comsidering Corsair Eldar was my original fleet and I was a bit discouraged by the original Eldar rules. Now, they are one of my favorite fleets.

Conclusion from me, as if it matters: Either would be great!

Offline Seahawk

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Re: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 08:28:24 PM »
Think of the Space Marine's fleet as the Avenger-class grandcruiser cruiser, except the whole fleet plays that way and is more maneuverable. My god would it be terrifying to face down 10 Strike Cruisers in a 1500 game (which is why I figured I'd give my opponents a somewhat easier time with the battle barge instead ;)). Slugging brutal firepower at close range, with boarding actions and elite attack craft is what the marines are about (a fleet that plays like the fluff says?? wowee!). If that doesn't appeal, then the marines aren't for you.

Don't get the wrong idea; there is plenty of tactical play involved with the marines, more so than with others, because to win you have to work hard, fly right, and pick your targets. You're often going to be outnumbered in long range, attack craft, and plain ol' ships, but you got the chops to blow them to bits.

For instance, if I get to play against Mycen and he also uses the same fleet as last year, then I'll be outnumbered a paltry 6-1. Good odds for any space marine!

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 09:09:40 PM »
Yes, but you will have oh so much more firepower on the prow, and much more durability than Avengers.  The 90 degree turns basically make it so people can't really out-maneuver you, considering your FLR guns as well.

Offline ElectricPaladin

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Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 09:58:13 PM »
Hm... I'm beginning to come around. The flexibility and mobility angle is appealing. If not the nemesis, what VBB do you recommend with a fleet of strike cruiser escorts?

Offline ElectricPaladin

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Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 10:26:31 PM »
So, looking at the Space Marine big ship options, I have:

1) Retribution VBB
ʉۢ Powerful guns, some lances.
ʉۢ Powerful torpedoes
ʉۢ 6+ prow
ʉۢ BUT no launch bays at all.

2) Despoiler VBB
ʉۢ 4 launch bays
ʉۢ Decent guns
ʉۢ Short range lances
ʉۢ BUT I'm paying for 60 cm on some weapons I'm unlikely to use.

3) Desolator VBB
  • Decent firepower.
  • Torpedos
  • BUT, no launch bays

4) Apocalypse
ʉۢ Tons of short range lances (not paying for range!).
ʉۢ 6+ prow.
ʉۢ Would look totally awesome.
ʉۢ BUT, no launch bays.
ʉۢ Not sure about that nova cannon.

 5) Standard BB
ʉۢ Midrange weapons.
ʉۢ 3 launch bays.
ʉۢ Bombardment cannons.
ʉۢ BUT no torpedoes, few launch bays.

6) Nemesis VBB
ʉۢ 6 launch bays!
ʉۢ BUT, general lack of firepower, and what I have is too long range.

Given those facts? I'm torn between the despoiler and the standard, which I guess I could scratch-build for the hell of it, using lances for bombardment cannons.

I'm still bummed that the nemesis turns out to be such a lousy option... All those launch bays...

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Space Marine 1500 Fleet List - Please Advise
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 10:31:43 PM »
The  standard BB DOES have torpedoes. I would say that it would be  between the same two you mentioned, depending on what you are looking to do. Also, the 6+ armor on the standard BB is a huge perk over the Despoiler.