August 04, 2024, 09:11:19 PM

Author Topic: Best Venerable Battlebarge  (Read 4916 times)

Offline ElectricPaladin

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Best Venerable Battlebarge
« on: February 11, 2013, 10:22:58 PM »
After seeing some awesome scratch built VBBs, I thought it might be fun to try my hand at it, what with all the spare parts I  gradually am accruing. Of all the fleets I play or want to play, a Space Marine VBB seems like the best fit for a scratch build.

Anyway, before I can start the design process, I need to decide what kind of VBB to build. Any suggestions?

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 10:51:02 PM »
The Retribution is a favorite, 6+ prow armor and long range batteries/ lances make it a shoe in. Other than that most any battleship should be ok, Styx is nice for the thunderchickens, anything with lances, I would consider a Dominion actually (6 lance, 2 chickens, 6 torps, 6+ prow armor). I havent tried the CSM Barge but loyalist chapters can take those also (FAQ2010, Powers of Chaos, listed under te Vengeful Spirit entry).
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline ElectricPaladin

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Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 11:46:14 PM »
Since posting this, I've been wondering about the Nemesis Fleet Carrier. All those thunderbirds! And with strike cruiser support, I'm not lacking in guns (bombardment cannons are awesome). Also, I think the design in contemplating would look cool with all those fighter bays. Is this...

a) a good idea?

b) likely to be accepted in any casual or tourney environment?

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 12:01:37 AM »
Well it might fly in casual play but probably not in a tourny, you could probably pass one off as an Emperor tho if it became an issue.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 02:20:08 AM »
Since you can take any IN or Chaos BB as a VBB under FAQ 2010, take a Desolator.  It's a bit fragile compared to the Ret, but it's fast, and long range. 

That and SM lances are right up there with showing up with SMs with greenstuff 'breastplates' for regular 40k. 

The best part is getting a member of that rabid foaming school that DEMANDED that SCs not be allowed to have lances and then demanded that they be inferior to other options if they did.  It was totally worth all that time dremmelling off all that chaos iconography to make it WYSIWYG to watch one of these 'spiritual liege' types swallow their tongue as the (totally legal!) Venerable Battlebarge Lúin Celtchair unleashed it's fiery lances.

BWA HA HA HA HA HAHA!... errr...

Yeah, so, anyway yeah, I like that one.


The other option is the Nicor from IA X, if your tourney is permitting FW.    It's not a VBB per se, you have to take it as a Reserve most of the time it's permitted, but this thing is amazingly hard to kill and is a swiss army knife when it comes to 'what do I need now?'.  You also get free rerolls to board and hit and run with it. (on top all the other boarding and hit and run fun SM get.)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 02:45:45 AM by BaronIveagh »
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Offline Cneo

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 04:57:32 PM »
I usually play an Apocalypse VBB...its awesome lances are really deadly at long range. ;)

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 10:28:31 AM »
The best part is getting a member of that rabid foaming school that DEMANDED that SCs not be allowed to have lances and then demanded that they be inferior to other options if they did.  It was totally worth all that time dremmelling off all that chaos iconography to make it WYSIWYG to watch one of these 'spiritual liege' types swallow their tongue as the (totally legal!) Venerable Battlebarge Lúin Celtchair unleashed it's fiery lances.

Get your hand off it BI, no one ever even argued against a VBB with lances being allowed. You make out as if we all wanted to find a way to exclude the option. As for "rabid foaming", that appellation is more fit for a SM fanboi like you.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 02:56:14 PM »
Get your hand off it BI, no one ever even argued against a VBB with lances being allowed.  You make out as if we all wanted to find a way to exclude the option.

Really?  Well, let's take a look at the record.  These are just a small sampling of the early parts of a thread that went on for more than 70 pages.  You know, when people were, in theory, at their most reasonable.


Look, if people want to have lances they SHOULDN'T PLAY MARINES! You do not have to give everyone the same gear just because they might want it. If that were the case, I know some chaos that would love to have cruiser mounted NCs! Marines already have the BC which hits on a 4+ like a lance, adding lances doesn't do anything except break fluff and ignore the gunnery table.

Marine capital ships should not have lances attached to them. period. Why are you so dead set determined to give marines something they shouldn't have? I know it's really easy to just say people you don't want to listen to are the vocal minority and move on, but these issues are things that go far outside of those of us posting here.

Limit the access to lance heavy battleships. The Despoiler and Desolator shouldn't be taken because there is a flaw in the design. The Apoc is out as well. The Emperor, Retribution and Oberon should be allowed if only because they are one off ships which should only be allowed in the First and Second Founding Chapters.

I can see a vanilla barge customized and kitted out post aquisition, hence the chapter specific barges.  Venerable barges selected from the other battleships? Hell freakin' no.  Giving space marines access to lances, nova cannons, and huge launch capacity is just taking it a step too far for the rules, and for the fluff.

Look, no one around this place will ever except the SO with current stats. Give it batteries, drop lances, all of them and we start talking again. ;)

And for the Cherry on top, this *was* about the SC lance option and the fact that a vocal minority forced a bad design decision on the HA, but I think you make your opinion on the whole subject of Space Marine Lances quite clear.:

It gives a lance option to all those that demanded it and yet ensures that no one will take it as they shouldn't or, if they do, they're punished for their stupidity. It's a cowards way out. It should simply be stated that no purpose built SM capital ship will fuckin EVER have a lance on it. Deal with it.


So, despite the fact that the thread ranted about VBB lances in particular for the first 20 pages and then SM lances in general for another 50, no one argued against it, really.

Either you need to stop smoking whatever you're on, or pass it around to share with the rest of us.


As for "rabid foaming", that appellation is more fit for a SM fanboi like you.

Sig, you do realize that calling someone a 'fanboy' is the 40k Godwin, right? It'd have more sting, but so far this week I'm a SM, Tau, IG, IN, Chaos, and Oldcron fanboy (And if it's like last week will probably be accused of being a fanboy of every single race and organization in 40k at one point or another).  You, yourself, have accused me at various points in the past of being a fanboy of IN, SM, and Chaos, depending on how little you actually know about the current state of a given piece of fluff in canon and how much it conflicts with your personal view of what 40k should be.



Quite bluntly, I'm nobody's 'fanboy', I just actually read up on the fluff.  (Keeping at the top of the fluff pile is sort of my job atm.  I run a 40k RP forum).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:08:26 PM by BaronIveagh »
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Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 07:47:12 PM »
Someones a Sig hating fanboy.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2013, 07:48:37 PM »
Baron, you sure do have a way of getting under people's skin, consciously or unconsciously! I didn't hear anything from what you said before Sig's post that would have made me that aggressive in my response.  Anyways...  :D cheer up people. Let's all take a deep breath.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2013, 10:29:18 PM »
Someones a Sig hating fanboy.

*shrug*  I can't deny I don't like him. 


Baron, you sure do have a way of getting under people's skin, consciously or unconsciously! I didn't hear anything from what you said before Sig's post that would have made me that aggressive in my response.  Anyways...  :D cheer up people. Let's all take a deep breath.

It's long and involved and has it's roots in FAQ2010's alterations to SM and IN.  I felt that deliberately creating a poorly balanced option, the SM SC lance option as made it into the FAQ, was bad game design.   It creates a 'noob trap' that tricks noobs into spending more points for less firepower (people tend to assume if it costs more, it's better). 

However, the very idea of SM ships having lances caused uproar the likes of which is not usually seen outside a thread by Doctor Thunder showing off a bevy of female space marine minis on dakka, and for much the same reason, it conflicted with canon.  Or what they thought was canon but had been changed without the BFG community really noticing a year or so earlier. 

(Amusingly enough, given Ray's more recent posts involving Necron fleets and shields, does this mean you've changed your mind about SM lances now, Horizon?  Because there's pigs winging in low over the barn.)

 So no one was in a mood to listen to more sensible options like limiting their numbers per point cost, (See above post's quotes for a general idea of the state of the forum at the time, if you missed it) and a lot of people proclaiming that they would never allow various and sundry things (Sig was particularly venomous about simultaneous fire) in 'their' BFG and a few of them got particularly abusive of the HA and anyone that supported SM lances.

The fluff argument against went up in smoke with Planetstrike (despite Sig's rather creative argument that there was some other weapon on a starship called a lance that had just never been mentioned elsewhere), so the argument switched to moving the goal post, circular arguments, and some very large non-sequiters and strawmen on pretty much every side of the debate.  For 70+ pages and resulted in neither side winning.

Following that every time I posted, I'd get hostile if not downright trolling posts etc from Sig regardless of subject.

Me - 'I like Ice Cream!'
Sig - 'DIE IN A FIRE!'

(Note: since I see he has yet to grasp this concept, that was called 'comedic exaggeration', in a similar vein to my earlier post about lances and VBBs.)

Which more or less is why I dropped off the BFG map for a while and took over Dark Reign.  (which now has a BFG section.)
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium

Offline horizon

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2013, 04:30:49 AM »
What did Ray write about Necrons?
The lance addition was indeed a bad game design. But the ha had an order to do it. We just made sure the option was whack. And I still stand behind that. The Marine fleet has become a good fleet with 2010. They won adepticon.
:)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 04:54:34 AM »
Ray wrote a bunch of new necron rules you after the latest Necron codex.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 02:43:11 PM »
What did Ray write about Necrons?

To match the new fluff, they now have shields.

The lance addition was indeed a bad game design. But the ha had an order to do it. We just made sure the option was whack. And I still stand behind that. The Marine fleet has become a good fleet with 2010.

Orders and popular demand, supposedly.

No arguments on it being a good fleet now that you can take that extra shield and that IA X expanded the character ship options. 

The better option was still to hard limit them to something like 1 per 750 pts rather than make the option pointless.  It is still enough that it has near zero impact and does not provide a trap for unwary new players.

What I've learned from experience though is all you've done is make sure that the screaming to 'fix' that option is even louder when FAQ 20XX rolls around.  (Seriously, do you know how many times I've had to answer the 'Is this a misprint?' question?)
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Offline horizon

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Re: Best Venerable Battlebarge
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 05:33:38 PM »
 Just tell them a weird Dutch fellow did it. ;)