BFG:R Daemon Ships

[Neferhet]

I've just one thing with the armada prices: the scaling points between Grand Cruisers, HC and Cruisers.
In my opinion, heavy cruisers already pay dearly for the slightly better weapons in their stat line. Otherwise, they die as fast as any other ship. For me they, should be priced within the Cruiser cathegory.
So:

BB +50
Gran Cruiser +30
Cruiser/Heavy Cruiser +20

This, IMO, should even give the Slaughter some competitors. From cheap and furious to costly and nasty in the same cathergory is something that we can exploit greatly.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The thing about Slaughters is how vulnerable they are on approach. By removing this your giving them a large advantage plus they outgun all the other Chaos ships at the ranges were talking about.

The only real cruiser picks imo are Slaughter (good all arounder with unbeatable power), Carnage (nearly equal power to the Slaughter and the thing of nightmares for space elves), and the Devastation (Lunar eq firepower and a full bomber strike *with MoK and berserker you get an even more... devastating... bomber wave and a solid follow up boarding opportunity. The Murder doesn't factor for me regardless of cost. 

[horizon]

Limit them isn't a bad idea.

[Neferhet]

Limit them isn't a bad idea.

About the limit we could say, instead of the 1 every 1000 or the 25% limit, that dships does are not counted for heavy/gran cruisers and battleships requisite. Meaning that if you take 2 cruisers and a demon cruiser, you still cannot field a battleship.  Otherwise we van just say that every ship class can be "demonized" just once. So you can have as many d ships you want as long they are of different class. What do you say?

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well if you want to be really harsh you can just limit them to reserves rules. Of course at 25% you couldnt get two Slaughters anyway, 190 for a Slaughter and only 375 points to work with. Thats why I thought the 25% would work so well as your really only going to be able to get one ship at the more common levels and its scaled so you cant take three light cruisers and something like a Daemon Relictor in a ~1k or so. I was assuming at least 25pts for a cruiser tho. Actually 30 for cruisers/heavys 40 for grands and 50 for bbs might work alright.

[Brethren]

Actually 30 for cruisers/heavys 40 for grands and 50 for bbs might work alright.

I don't think so.
We changed the Daemon's rules from bad to good, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't know if your Daemon will work out good ahead of the battle.
Ship caps aside, for +40 I'd rather upgrade a grand to a battleship. +30 on a heavy is also almost a battleship in some cases. And +30 on a cruiser will get you a heavy instead.
If these point cost reflect the rules of a Daemon I'd rather change the rules to justify a lower cost.


Setting availiability to "Reserves" would prevent Daemon abuse, but will almost certainly kill Daemon grands and battleships. Still, it's a compromise I could live with.

As with ship classes... I don't understand the fuzz about the Slaughter. Daemonbomb isn't the only way to use those ships. A Daemon is a lone cruiser somewhere in space... and in my experience a lone cruiser too close to the enemy fleet is a wreck easily made. Two Daemon Slaughters may be even worth turning our fleet around for one turn to get them.
I'd pick range over firepower on this case. I even considered a Murder (with lance option) because it has almost full firepower at 45cm. Not many fleets have the ability to catch it that far behind.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I think the ability to place the ship anywhere its needed far out weighes the cost on these, even with any peneltys.

Reserves would only really affect Battleships, and really the reserve rules should be looked at eventually anyway because they are far too restrictive on the top and bottom ends. Grand cruisers fall under cruiser for reserves just like heavys and battles.

No Daemon bombing isnt the only use but its the most obvious abuse. You can also ghost again which really can be more powerful, drop a ship on the enemy carriers and follow them until the fleets meet then come solid. This means your ships are never alone and you have denied the enemy possible fighter cover and/or re-rolls giving you a significant advantage. The use in scenariors cannot be understated either. Escallating engagement, convoy, bait, surprise attack, and blockade run all have various nefarious uses for these ships that will significantly tip the balance and those are just the core scenarios.

[Khar]

Reserves might be a solution here, especially if we plan to look at reserve rules themselves [cruisers are perfectly fine, but when was the last time anyone has seen reseve battleship? Maybe a separate thread for reworking reserves?]

If not, i quite like 1/1000. I'm just not a fan of 25% because when you have to calculate 15% of the ship, than if it fits within 25% of the fleet... too much counting, makes things a bit complicated.

[Neferhet]

Two 1000 pts Vassal games had (against two steamroller IN), for a quick test of the DShip.
I've always fielded the Daemon Slaughter, with the +25 pts.
It kicked ass.
First time he basically ignored the ship, to keep aiming torpedo at short range and ramming my poor Murders (Ouch! ramming hurts!!!).
 My buddy had some serious bad dice rolling with torps, but in any case the Demonship left alone crippled a Lunar, hulked another and exploded 3 escorts in two turns...in the middle of his formation shooting left and right like rambo.
Second time he tried to get out the range of the Slaughter's guns, doing so splitting his fleet in two. I closed his right half with Murder + Hades and the Dship on the back . The left half gave me some pain with torpedoes and ramming, but i managed to snatch a victory nontheless. DShip crippled but not disengaged because I needed all the cannons on the board for the closing actions.
About the limit: too messy the 25% thing. It is basically the same as 1/1000. Only complicated by useless math.
Point cost: for me,  cruiser+25 is fine.
Can't tell about the other ships.
Cheers


 

[horizon]

1 per 1000pts for me.

Costings:
(heavy) cruiser 25
grand cruiser 30
battleship...hmm.... 50 (after playtesting I could see this dropped to 40~)

[Neferhet]

@horizon
in the next week I might manage to playtest a Vassal game big enough to field a BB.
Do you have any suggestions about the BB i should try out? I was thinking a classic Despoiler.

[horizon]

Aye,
I think that is a good choice to test, and if you have time the Desolator (with Khorne) as well (otherwise I see no use for a support ship to be at close range, or 9 torps from close range ).

[Neferhet]

Aye,
I think that is a good choice to test, and if you have time the Desolator (with Khorne) as well (otherwise I see no use for a support ship to be at close range, or 9 torps from close range ).

Perfect. The second game, if I manage to play it, that is, will have the Khorne Desolator.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Oy, that hurts just thinking about it .

[afterimagedan]

Anyone want to attempt writing up the final rules of what we have so far?