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Author Topic: BFG:R Daemon Ships  (Read 26623 times)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #90 on: April 09, 2013, 06:10:29 AM »
Good call on the price issue. And, your explanation of how daemons roll is quite compelling.  :D

Offline Neferhet

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2013, 08:39:18 AM »
it's getting real!  :)
So... (I copy/paste this from andrew)

USING DAEMON SHIPS IN
BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC
The basic profile of a ship, which is upgraded to
a Daemon ship remains unchanged. It does not
matter what broadside weapons you replace
with Daemon ship components the ship’s
profile is not changed.
The points cost to upgrade a capital ship to a
Daemon ship is as follows:
Battleship . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Grand cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Heavy cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
A Daemon ship may not be commanded by a
Warmaster or a Chaos Lord even if it is the
largest ship in the fleet. This is an exception to
the normal rule. A Daemon ship may not have a
Chaos Space Marine crew. You can 
upgrade to Daemon ships only the 25% (pointwise) of your fleet.

Daemonships cannot be used in
squadrons.
Daemon ships cannot carry Exterminatus
weapons and do not score any points for
landing troops in a planetary assault (the
Daemons are bound within the hull of their
vessel, whilst able to board enemy ships
normally in the context of a BFG game they
would become unstable if holding a planetary
objective for any length of time).
Any Daemon ship may have a single Mark of
Chaos with the same effects and cost in points
as described in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook.
Daemon ship Leadership is rolled as normal (ie,
1=6, 2,3=7, 4,5=8, 6=9).


WARP TRANSLATION
A Daemonship must be kept off table at the start
of a game. The rest of the fleet is deployed as
stated in the rules for the mission being played.
The Daemonship(s) are actually lurking in the
Warp waiting to either be summoned by one of
the on-table Chaos ships or drawn to the ripe
souls aboard an enemy ship. At the end of a Movement
phase of any Chaos turn, including the first, they
may enter play from the Warp as follows:
Select a friendly or enemy Capital ship, only a
Capital ship contains enough supplicants or
victims to draw a Daemonship from the Warp.
On a roll of 2+ position the Daemonship within 20cm of the
chosen vessel facing in any direction desired by
the Chaos player controlling it. otherwise it must stay in reserve for this turn.
The arriving Daemonship is unaffected by
celestial phenomena and does not trigger attack
by ordnance markers in contact.

SPECTRAL DAEMONSHIPS
The Daemonship has now pierced the fabric of
real space and has started to manifest itself. It is
not entirely present in real space, however,
although it is real enough for enemy vessels to
track its location and react to its presence. It is
in effect a spectre. Any enemy vessel attempting
a special order when within 15cm of it is at -1
Leadership. Apart from this, it has no effect, can do nothing to
affect enemy ships (marks effects included) and cannot be harmed in
return. It cannot launch ordnance, trigger
mines, be affected by celestial phenomena,
nothing, at all – OK!
At the end of any subsequent Chaos Movement
phase it may complete the translation to real
space. It does not have to and may remain a
spectral, haunting presence as long as the Chaos
player wishes. When the decision is made to translate
to real space make a leadership test. Reguardless of
the result it becomes solid, but if the leadership test
is failed the Daemonship will halve all weapons
firepower and strengths until the end of the turn.
This final translation cannot be made if the Daemonship
is in contact with an enemy vessel. No actions can be
undertaken in the movement phase during which final
translation occurs except standard movement and turns
(no sneaky special orders or suchlike). From this point
on the Daemonship is solid and fights like a normal ship.
If a Daemon ship fully materializes in contact with
celestial phenomena, it suffers any effects of those
celestial phenomena, such as gas clouds, asteroid
fields, etc. before the start of its movement phase.
However, if it materializes in an asteroid field, it may
then attempt to avoid damage by making a leadership
check normally.

HAUNTING
A Daemonship may disengage at the end of any
Chaos Movement phase without having to make
any dice roll. It simply drops back into the Warp
leaving no trace.
A disengaged Daemonship may re-enter play on
any Chaos turn following the one in which it
disengages. This is done following the
translation rules detailed above.
If it was damaged when it disengaged it may be
repaired when it returns, roll a d6,

1,2 or 3 No change.

4 or 5 +1 hull point.

6 +2 hull points.

Add +1 to the roll if it is a battleship.

Add +1 for each full turn the Daemonship spent
in the Warp.

A returning Daemonship cannot come back with
more hits than it could normally have. A
Daemonship will only count as disengaged if it is
currently disengaged at the end of the game for
Victory points purposes, unless of course it is
destroyed or crippled, then the normal rules apply.
A Daemonship which is crippled will always count
as crippled for Victory points purposes, reguardless
of how many hit points it has remaining at the end
of the game.

When a Daemonship is "haunting‟ or is spectral it
can still suffer damage from fire critical hits. In
addition to repairing damage, they may repair
critical hits while in the warp rolling normally,
repairing critical damage on a 4+ as opposed to a 6.

Daemonships do not automatically regain hits after
each battle. They have to be regained either in a game
by warp translation or by expending repair points, or
they can be withdrawn normally
___________
Is it all ok?
We can begin to think about prices ?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 04:27:47 PM by Neferhet »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #92 on: April 09, 2013, 04:10:50 PM »

Add +1 for each full turn the Daemonship spent
in the Warp.



Hopefully the red and the strike through does not mean that we are getting rid of this!

I think 10% of the price of the ship, round up to the nearest 5pts would be appropriate. There are some downsides to being a daemon ship but more benefits. No use of rerolls and no squadroning means that it has no real way of mitigating its leadership if it gets a low score. Losing turns because of being in the warp and only being partially there when spectral is a downside. Obviously, the upsides make up for it and more so this shouldn't be a free upgrade. So, we are looking at a point cost here.

Knowing that there should be a point cost and that the level of power that this grants scales (considering a battleship dropped in is much more of a threat than a cruiser), the point values should be scaling by size, and I would argue by point value. So we are looking at percentages.

To keep it near the old ranges or prices, I think the 10% of the ships original points, round up, is appropriate.

Quote
You can upgrade to Daemon ships only the 25% (pointwise) of your fleet.

Would this be after you add the points for the daemonship upgrade or before? I think this is confusing compared to 1/1000. Either way, I'm up for using the 25% restriction, but I think we need to be really clear about it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 04:22:41 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline Neferhet

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #93 on: April 09, 2013, 04:25:14 PM »
Well, i undestood we abandoned it. I'm modifying the post :)
I'm happier tough, if we keep it!

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #94 on: April 09, 2013, 05:15:12 PM »
I think it may have been dropped because of the easier regen roll old BFGR had.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #95 on: April 09, 2013, 05:32:32 PM »
Really, we did drop the extra repair.
I don't like it.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #96 on: April 09, 2013, 06:50:27 PM »
What do you have against it? I don't see a reason to remove it from the original.

Offline Khar

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #97 on: April 09, 2013, 07:27:15 PM »
Nothing particularily strong about this rule - every turn you spend spectral to gain +1 to the roll is a turn when your 200+ pts ship does effectively nothing - your choice. Also, it grants some predictability for chaos player when he really wants to regenerate his ship.

It should stay.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2013, 07:39:06 PM »
I just find it a clunky extra to an already rule extensive vessel.

But, I will concede.

Offline Neferhet

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2013, 08:31:51 PM »
I think that the real bonus from staying in the warp comes from the 4+ critical repair. Who cares about an hull point more when i have such a boost.

@afterimagedan: as for me, I would too apply 1/1000 pts limitation. But I understood we dropped it in favour of the 25% thing. A proper wording is needed. My english being clunky, I'll leave this rule wording to you guys.

About points: (everithing rounded up to the nearest 5 pts)

A) 10% ship cost + something extra per class ship?
   (like 10% + 10 cruiser / 15 grand cruiser or HC / 25 BB)

OR

B) a straight 15%

Let's have some cases:

A)
Desolator 55 pts (30 + 25)
Repulsive (shield upgrade) 40 pts (24,5 +15)
Carnage 30 pts (18 +10)
Slaughter 25 pts (16,5 + 10)

B)
Desolator 45 pts
Repulsive (shield upgrade) 36,75--> 35
Carnage 27-->25
Slaughter 24,75-->25

Method B) is better, IMO

Offline Khar

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2013, 08:56:37 PM »
wouldn't fixed costs for cruisers, heavy cruisers, grand cruisers and battleships be way simplier to use?

Counting percentages for each individual ship sounds needlessly complicated and ultimately would lead to very similar costs among every class.

Offline Neferhet

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2013, 09:11:10 PM »
wouldn't fixed costs for cruisers, heavy cruisers, grand cruisers and battleships be way simplier to use?


Counting percentages for each individual ship sounds needlessly complicated and ultimately would lead to very similar costs among every class.
It is true what you say. But it is to be said that giving % upgrades could help in a more fair pricing between ships of the same class

How it could be?
BB +40
Grand Criser +30
Heavy Cruiser +25
Cruiser +20


Offline Khar

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2013, 09:25:17 PM »
something around that. I'd place the price closer to 15% -

45 [or even 50] for BB
35 [or 40] for Grand Cruisers,
30 for heavy cruisers,
25 for cruisers.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2013, 09:30:27 PM »
Buying a daemon ship upgrade is primarily a way to drop a ship where you want it. Being able to relocate different ships with different power levels should scale pretty well cost-wise. I think set costs would be alright but the percentage cost would be a bit more accurate approach. Yes, it's a bit more difficult to calculate, but I think more accurate and balanced. I could get behind a 15% upgrade.

Offline Khar

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Re: BFG:R Daemon Ships
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2013, 09:34:19 PM »
We're talking about 5 points difference max, between set and 15% if i count correctly. Not particularily game breaking value.

But if majority wants 15%, I won't complain.