BFG:R Daemon Ships

[Neferhet]

Hey guys, we're getting confused a bit
I say, without problems, since no one thinks to be hindered by a scatter:
1)Any Chaos End phase- placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter   (can only haunt for -1 Ld)
OR
1a)Any Begin of a Movement Phase -  placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter + move a susual (can only haunt for -1  Ld) + cannot be shoot at

2)Next Chaos movement Phase- may move and can become solid at the end of the Movement phase.
 Have a Ld check: fail half firepower / success full firepower (no special orders this turn)

3)Any Chaos End Phase: can return to warp, repeat from step 1

Right?

[Brethren]

Hey guys, we're getting confused a bit
I say, without problems, since no one thinks to be hindered by a scatter:
1)Any Chaos End phase- placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter   (can only haunt for -1 Ld)
OR
1a)Any Begin of a Movement Phase -  placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter + move a susual (can only haunt for -1  Ld) + cannot be shoot at

2)Next Chaos movement Phase- may move and can become solid at the end of the Movement phase.
 Have a Ld check: fail half firepower / success full firepower (no special orders this turn)

3)Any Chaos Movement Phase: can return to warp, repeat from step 1

Right?

Dropping back to the Warp is done in the Movement Phase so that the Daemon can't do anything else this round, except repairing critical damage in the end phase and going spectral in the End Phase again.

Scatter die argument:
You're forgetting something serious, guys. The Daemon arrives as spectral in the End Phase. At that point it can't move anywhere at all to correct a bad scatter roll.
The benefit from spectral movement is to stay one more round spectral to correct an unfavorable position.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The way I was thinking was like this.

1. End of Chaos players movement phase: Roll a d6, on a score of 1 the ship does not make the transition from the warp and remains in reserve. On a 2+ the ship may be deployed anywhere within 20cm of any capitol ship, facing in a direction of the Chaos players choosing. As it is placed at the End of the movement phase It may not take any special orders or move in any way.

2. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The ship may move as normal (we can add that it may not take special orders if needed). At the End of any subsequent Chaos players movement phase a spectral Daemonship may finalize the transition and become solid. Upon appearing a leadership test must be attempted, if the ship fails the leadership test all weapons firepowers and strengths will be halved until the next turn, if the ship passes its weapons will all be at full strength. From this point forward the Daemonship functions exactly as any other ship.

3. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The Daemonship may during any subsequent Chaos players movement phases disengage. There is no test for this, it is simply removed from play and placed back into reserve.

4. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The process starts over, refer to step 1.


Ok so after thinking on this a bit there should be some penalty for disengaging to keep people from popping out, slugging it out till they suffer a couple hits, then disengaging gaining hits back and starting the process over.

[horizon]

That was the procedure I had in mind as well. Good.

As for the last bit:
the influence of the warp gets stronger, the 2nd time the dice roll to appear gets more difficult.

Options:
* the roll is highered with the number of hits that have been repaired. Thus if you repaired 2 hits the roll would become 4+ instead of 2+.

* or just flat chart:
1st time 2+
2nd time 4+
3rd time 6+
stays 6+...

[Neferhet]

1. End of Chaos players movement phase: Roll a d6, on a score of 1 the ship does not make the transition from the warp and remains in reserve. On a 2+ the ship may be deployed anywhere within 20cm of any capitol ship, facing in a direction of the Chaos players choosing. As it is placed at the End of the movement phase It may not take any special orders or move in any way. Shouldn't we have a scatter then? If I cannot move it's a relevant disruption

2. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The ship may move as normal (we can add that it may not take special orders if needed). At the End of any subsequent Chaos players movement phase a spectral Daemonship may finalize the transition and become solid. Upon appearing a leadership test must be attempted, if the ship fails the leadership test all weapons firepowers and strengths will be halved until the next turn, if the ship passes its weapons will all be at full strength. From this point forward the Daemonship functions exactly as any other ship.

3. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The Daemonship may during any subsequent Chaos players movement phases disengage. There is no test for this, it is simply removed from play and placed back into reserve.

4. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The process starts over, refer to step 1.

Perfect. I was getting confused!!   
About the popping in and out of the warp, i disagree with horizon, too harsh a penalty.  We could just alter the repair chart to 1-3 nothing; 4-6 1 HP (as previously proposed, even if that makes me cry  ) . This way, the benefits of popping in and out, should be "limited" to just a fast repositioning, most of the time. Wich is actually good. Besides, by popping in and out you actually lose one shooting phase per disengagement. That is not a thing to be sneezed at. Basically you choose (if you really want to warp in and out like a prairie dog) to act half of your turns to gain a good positioning each shooting phase, apart from disturbing the enemy. I think that's exactly what we will gladly pay points for.

[afterimagedan]

Oops, I definitely was forgetting the end phase stuff.

Anyways, Andrew, I think you nailed it down. I'm in.

Horizon, I see where you are going with that. One think that's weird though is that it could build up too many hit points to return at all if you repair 5+ hits. That's pretty extreme, but possible.

[AndrewChristlieb]

You loose two shooting phases when you phase out and back in. One the turn you leave and a second the turn you come back spectral.

[Brethren]

So what have we got here...

• AndrewChristlieb proposed to set the "become solid"-thing to the movement phase as well as the "summoning". Okay, so that keeps the Daemons from blinking in and out to often. Actually that may be the best way. Any other approach either turns the mechanic to crap or makes the Daemon too strong.
  
• If we agree on the above we should settle with the Repair Table Armada gave us. Loosing two phases is hard enough that there's no need for an additional penalty here.
  
• I realize that the scatter die seems to be a bit "old style". But no movement on the arriving turn makes my head ache.
  If the "summoning" and "getting real" are happening at the end of the movement phase the Daemon won't move for 2 turns. Meaning you would actually have to place it ahead or in the middle of an enemy fleet to keep in close range. And that will only work with some fleets.
  Any fleet that relies on speed can just push on and leave the Daemon behind who then has to decide either to stay spectral and close up or become real and stay behind.
  Without movement on the arriving turn you cannot reliably daemonbomb Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Marines or Necrons, because they won't be there anymore if they choose so.
  

[horizon]

Hi Brethren,
per Andrew the daemonship can move in both turns.

Turn 1: It appears where it wants at the end of the movement phase, so no moving, no problem as it is where you want.

Turn 2: It may move as a spectral being, at the end of the movement phase it becomes solid.

Turn 3: move, shoot per normal

Ya see. Your point 3 is no issue then.

[afterimagedan]

I agree Horizon. And Brethren, your point at the end about fast and maneuverable fleets; this problem will encourage longer ranged daemon ships. I see this as a double win here because it works the way I think it should cinematic-wise (daemon ship takes a bit to warp in and the enemy can oh S&%t and flee or plan an attack) and longer ranged chaos ships become more of an option.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Spectral Daemonships may move then attempt to solidify. This eliminates the enemies ability to shut down a Daemon by parking an escort on it and still keeps the Daemon from forcing any sneaky boarding actions.

[AndrewChristlieb]

So where are we on their ability to use re-rolls? Personally I dont think they should be able to. From a fluff perspective I dont really see a Daemon as the sort to sit back and let some silly mortal boss him around and its already been tossed around that they shouldnt be able to at least for the leadership test when solidifying.

What other concerns do we still have to address?

[afterimagedan]

I think no rerolls. That makes sense fluff-wise. However, part of me things that daemon ships would have better Ld than regular Chaos ships because they are without the squabble of rebels and traitors. I wonder if a +1 Ld is in order. Just throwing that out there.

[horizon]

No re-rolls indeed.
As for leadership: they are daemons, they do not care for the mortal realm nor their ship. So I see no reason for extra leadership. IMO that is.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Ya I dont know about a leadership boost, they seem to run the gambit from quite cunning to compleatly uncontrolled raging lunitics driven mad by their imprisionment...

I think just removing the ability to use fleet commander rerolls should be fine and it will help offset some of the cost so theyre not too over priced.