BFG:R Daemon Ships

[AndrewChristlieb]

A limit of no more than 20-25% of your fleets points might be a better way to keep people from dropping a beastly BB down also.

[horizon]

Aye,
We are really fixing the daemonships? awesomesauce. 

 
25% seems reasonable. It would allow for a Desolator in 1500pts.

[Neferhet]

Andrew, thats great!

I agree with the removal of +1 boarding, altough I'd expect a DShip to be something like a frigging daemon nest, not so easily boarded

About the "no scatter" i'm not so convinced. If the ship can move when spectral, even the turn it appears on the board, we should give it a chanche not to always appear right in the back of any ship. Especially if it has a chanche to retain full firepower. Besides, I can agree with  that. (let's love the DShip)

The reduced repair chart is good. A little bit too harsh maybe? I'd say
1-2 nothing
3-5 1 hull point
6    2 hull point
-add +1 to the roll for every turn the Daemon spent in the Warp after the first. (this might be excessive if paired with faster crit repair)

I don't know if the bonus on crit repair is maybe a little too OP.
 It depends on the final cost of the upgrade i guess.

Limitation 25% seems legit. Demon upgrade cost comprehensive or not? I propend to make this limitation on the unmodified ship cost, as per statline.

About the rest, i'm with you.

To recap the ship will appear using the "slower" way ( No more fast reappearing if i read right,  ), but may retain full firepower, when spectral the MoS is cumulative with the "haunting" thing, smaller repair chance , no conceding points BUT if they crippled you once, you concede VP even if you repair, considered disengaged only if effectively disengaged at the end.

[horizon]

The added repair bonus as you propose Neferhet is excessive imo. Even the 2 hit repair on a 6 is quite good already.

[Khar]

Without the additional repair bonus, it seems reasonable.

Giving it a possibility of full firepower after Ld test makes it viable and not overpowered - it can't lock on on the turn it arrives, so this game has way more destructive guaranteed alpha strikes than this one.

I'd make limitation counting with upgrade cost - it makes calculations easier.

[Neferhet]

Giving it a possibility of full firepower after Ld test makes it viable and not overpowered - it can't lock on on the turn it arrives, so this game has way more destructive guaranteed alpha strikes than this one.

I'd make limitation counting with upgrade cost - it makes calculations easier.

just curiosity of a noob: wich are the alpha strike you are speaking of?

About the upgrade cost: how can we calculate something not broken or crippling?

[afterimagedan]

The scatter die rule isn't absurd, especially if we are possibly going to allow for full firepower the turn it becomes solid. At this point, 40pts to drop a battleship wherever you want within 20cm of the enemy and most likely able to fire full FP the turn it solidifies and allowing it full movement is a steal and overpowered, not to mention the other benefits.

The reason we should be adding the rule that says marks can work while spectral is it encourages the marks that actually can do something while spectral and makes them better than others that don't. For example, Slaanesh can work but Khorne can't. Also, Nurgle doesn't do anything because +1 hit doesn't matter while spectral. This would just encourage Slaanesh Slaughter bombs above other options. We should even it out by making the marks not function during spectral.

[afterimagedan]

A limit of no more than 20-25% of your fleets points might be a better way to keep people from dropping a beastly BB down also.

Chaos already has to put the admiral on the biggest ship so taking 2 battleships in order to make one daemon self limits unless i missed something.

[Khar]

just curiosity of a noob: wich are the alpha strike you are speaking of?

Entire Dark Eldar fleet comes to mind

[AndrewChristlieb]

IN nova spam, Eldar Torp rush, or any AAF ordinance strike all have the potential to be devistating first strikes. Mms has helped alot with the torp spam and the restriction on novas has nipped that gem. The ordinance strike is pretty self regulating as most of the ships that really pull it off well are extremly slow, weak, or expensive. 


Explain why you have to take two battleships to make one.

The scatter is unneeded. The enemy fleet still gets a full turn in order to adjust for its presense before it can become solid and even if we do retain the scatter its only going to encourage people to plop the shop down right on top of the target and still end up within 20cm of it on average. 

The MoS wouldnt be an automatic first choice? MoK or MoN would both be much better choices for an alpha strike ship, the MoS is more incidental and at a minimum of almost 200pts I dont see people buying these just to sit around and do nothing . This wouldnt be an issue at all if we gave the spectral ships a holofield like quality and allowed the enemy to take pot shots at them (dont allow them to fire until theyre solid tho of course.) This would encourage you to refrain from staying spectral indefinitely and reduce the "FU" nature of them.

[Neferhet]

Chaos already has to put the admiral on the biggest ship so taking 2 battleships in order to make one daemon self limits unless i missed something.

well, i could just have an entire fleet of Murder, with 1 devastation, and a Demon Desolator.
The Admiral goes on to the Devastation, cause Desolator cannot have an admiral.
I don't need another Battleship...

[horizon]

You still need to follow normal fleet restrictions to field a battleship, the daemon upgrade comes later.

[Neferhet]

Besides, I don't see how MoS is an auto choice. What's the point of using my limited ship  for a - 3 Ld on a ship or maybe two , without firing a shot for more than one turn? I'm never going to pay an avarage 200 pts tax just to reduce Ld of a couple of ships.
Instead, MoK seems really cool to have, cause you can crunch them in boarding actions and then appear right next to another ship. MoN is just good enough by himself.
MoT..well...I don't like it.
Andrew, i think the general idea is not to add qualities or ruels that may complicate things too much. So, no holofield like. See my first sentence. That's pointless.
About the scatter dice: we could have a vote for that?
I ask, not knowing the exact use of the votes you make.

[Khar]

You still need to follow normal fleet restrictions to field a battleship, the daemon upgrade comes later.

This will need clarification - Rules have to say that because warmaster must be on biggest ship, it can't be upgraded to demonship.

[AndrewChristlieb]

A Daemon ship may not be commanded by a
Warmaster or a Chaos Lord even if it is the
largest ship in the fleet. This is an exception to
the normal rule. A Daemon ship may not have a
Chaos Space Marine crew.


This has always been the rule so I dont understand the issue here? You do require 3 cruisers/heavy cruisers tho but that is not changed.