BFG:R Daemon Ships

[Brethren]

@AndrewChristlieb:

• the basis for the point costs was Plaxor's BFG:R Daemon List
• The boarding modifier was something I got from BFG:R as well, but I agree it's not that necessary.
• Deployment: The "may" was there since Armada.
• I've got no objections against using the Armada Haunting Repair Table.
• The nerf of the Mark of Slaanesh is necessary to get rid of another flaw. When you read the FAQ you may have missed the part that says that spectral Daemons don't move. The -1Ld (-3 with MoS) are worth nothing like that, because (unlucky scatter aside) with his next move the enemy will be out of 15cm.
  On the other hand, just allowing Spectres to move would give the MoS a too huge boost, when you consider we added light cruisers to the chaos forces.
• Victory Points: I support the consensus on: Disengaged if in the Warp at the end of the game. Crippled if crippled at least once during the game.

[Neferhet]

Can't we just say: no Demonic Light Cruisers? 
Besides, I think that we can agree on the "no mark effects when spectral". It's a good way for descouraging people to stay ethereal. But I would like to see some compensation, like no scatter dice. Scatter dice is useless, if the ship can move while ethereal, as previously stated. Plus, it makes things faster. Less dice to roll.

[AndrewChristlieb]

No light cruisers is fine.

I suppose if everyone thinks the MoS is a huge problem then nerfing it is ok :/.

The revision in the faq about daemon ships being unable to move was stupid, even if MoS was a problem and thats why I omited it i. The version I posted.

[horizon]

VPS: okay as in:
when in warp at end of game counts as disengaged. When once crippled it counts as crippled even if end hitpoints are uncrippled.

@Khar, As Andrwes says, what is the issue?
Fleet Selection per usual with all restrictions.
If you decide to upgrade your biggest ship to daemonship the warmaster is placed on the 2nd biggest ship.

Drop the boarding modifier: ok

okay: -1 Ld to enemies while spectral, no mark effects.

okay: getting solid has leadership test:
failed = halved
succeed = full

The last issue it seems (and perhaps proper point allocation) is to be on the solid moment. To scatter or not to scatter.
The direction is the same with scatter, but max distance away could be 24cm. (4d6).
Perhaps a lowering to 3d6 or even 2d6?

[Khar]

This has always been the rule so I dont understand the issue here? You do require 3 cruisers/heavy cruisers tho but that is not changed.

I may be wrong, but I always interpreted current rule like this:

If you have, for instance, 3 cruisers and a battleship and upgrade battleship to a daemonship, your warmaster must be on the most expensive cruiser (as he can't be on the daemonship, even though its most expensive)

What is needed, IMO, is forbidding making most expensive ship from being upgraded to a daemonship, as it would make it impossible for warmaster to be on it.

That version would remove daemon battleships from smaller games - you would need 2 battleships for one of them to be daemonship.

[horizon]

Hey Khar,
but as I said, the warmaster goes on biggest per usual but if biggest is daemon he goes on 2nd biggest.
Easy solution and not bending rules in my opinion.

[AndrewChristlieb]

3d6 is ok, 2d6 is worthless tho as anyone with orks knows (AAF) :/.

Why is the largest ship being a Daemon a problem tho?

Speaking of, IMO it should be noted that the Daemonship is not a part of the fleet and may not use fleet commander re-rolls.

[Khar]

I'm just not sure if I agree with allowing dropping daemon battleship on enemy's head in small battles... However, if majority doesn't see this as a problem, I'll concede my point.

[Neferhet]

The last issue it seems (and perhaps proper point allocation) is to be on the solid moment. To scatter or not to scatter.
The direction is the same with scatter, but max distance away could be 24cm. (4d6).
Perhaps a lowering to 3d6 or even 2d6?

Lowering it makes it even more useless. The avarage ship will cover any scatter with its bare movement.

[horizon]

@ Neferhet,
More useless, why? Less scatter is more in position where you want it to be.

@ Khar,
ah, that is your problem.

It is still that in a small battle, lets say 1000pts, it is still a edgy to make the BB the daemonship.
Perhaps we should build in: if the Ld roll when getting solid is a double 1 the daemon does not appear and is dragged back into the warp never to re-appear... lol

[Neferhet]

@ Neferhet,
More useless, why? Less scatter is more in position where you want it to be.

useless because if I can place my ship within 20 cm, then scatter (say an above avarage) 18 an then move 20, i'm exactly where I was before, without having to roll. IMO scatter is functional do disturb your placement only if you cannot move. Otherwise, to make it functional while moving we should make it an incredible 8/6d6 scatter!!

That is why I deem scatter with moving Dships useless

@ Khar,
ah, that is your problem.

It is still that in a small battle, lets say 1000pts, it is still a edgy to make the BB the daemonship.
Perhaps we should build in: if the Ld roll when getting solid is a double 1 the daemon does not appear and is dragged back into the warp never to re-appear... lol

Argh! That would be a stroke!! but I couldn't really accept a daemon ship losing into warp! they inhabit it!
Khar's issue might be not so terrible. In a 1000 pts fleet you can have just 1 DShip. You are paying for it and you cannot have it benefit from reroll ol Ld boost. In fact, using a DShip in 1000 pts is almost like using a Battleship. Costly and risky. Certainly strong and useful, but not so OP.
I don't think it's so powerful to limit it further.

[afterimagedan]

This has always been the rule so I dont understand the issue here? You do require 3 cruisers/heavy cruisers tho but that is not changed.

I may be wrong, but I always interpreted current rule like this:

If you have, for instance, 3 cruisers and a battleship and upgrade battleship to a daemonship, your warmaster must be on the most expensive cruiser (as he can't be on the daemonship, even though its most expensive)

What is needed, IMO, is forbidding making most expensive ship from being upgraded to a daemonship, as it would make it impossible for warmaster to be on it.

That version would remove daemon battleships from smaller games - you would need 2 battleships for one of them to be daemonship.

Your position on this was where I was but I think hey are right. It shouldn't be a big deal to just add a statement (maybe not even needed) that, if the biggest is a daemon ship, it just moves to the second biggest.

I think the point cost should be a percentage round to nearest 5 like a few of the new Tyranid evolutions. I think that's the path we should be going on.

I still support then scatter because I think there should be some randomness and unpredictability in warping in. Also, 4D6 isn't so bad, plus you roll a hit 1/3 of the time.

Horizon: the rolling double 1s dissappear is a little too dangerous for my taste!

Neferhet, even if you scatter 18cm, you are still 18cm of the place where you wanted your ship, so there is still some disruption.

I am fine with allowing a daemon battleship at 1000pts if it is properly priced.

[Neferhet]

@afterimagedan
I'm ok with the scatter.
just saying that it does not provides me any disruption.
 If I want to be near a ship, i place myself near that ship.
Then, even if I scatter 24cm, i'm just 4 cm (at worst) from where i wanted to be. I'm sorry, but i can't see how this scatter can disaturb me if i can autocorrect it moving after appearing (tha avarage chaos cruiser has 25 cm of move, so...)

About the pricing: 10% seems pretty good to me with a extra +15 pts for battleships, maybe

[AndrewChristlieb]

10% of cost seems... a bit low? We need to get to a point that we can agree on everything before attempting to price. I do like the idea of a percantage based cost structure but then I think there are some obvious choices for this and theyre not all expensive to begin with. The Slaughter for example is the cheapest cruiser and one of the most obvious choices, this will make it much more effective than say a Carnage or even an Acheron or Hades so why should it be cheaper?

My problem with the scatter is as stated, its pointless. I scatter 24cm, place my ship on an approach that will intercept the enemy cruiser and proceed to compleatly negate the scatter... It should be noted that when I read deployment during the Movement phase I was thinking that it could deploy but not move, hense why I stated that it would deploy at the end of the Movement phase, after any actual movement.

[Neferhet]

Well, the Slaughter issue is a good point...better to think later about the point cost.