BFG:R Daemon Ships

[afterimagedan]

Should we discuss how to change daemon ships in the Chaos list? It seems like the general consensus is to drop the current BFG:R daemon list?

[afterimagedan]

Man, nobody seems to like these things. BUT, we need to figure out what we would like to do with them before we conclude Chaos. Anyone want to take a crack at it?

[Brethren]

Oh oooh, pick me. Pick me! Honestly, I've never fielded daemon, so I don't really know where to start.

Again random thoughts:

Availability of Daemon Ships
- as an upgrade on any capital ship
- no warmaster, lord or CSM on a daemon
- Any idea on the restriction of how many ships may purchase the daemon upgrade? As long as the fleet has to have a warmaster the possible maximum of daemon ships would be 'all but one, excluding escorts'.
Since I never used one I really have no clue if there is a reason to further restrict them.

Special rules for Daemon Ships
Is there anything wrong with the rules given in old BFG:R? The basics are still pretty much the same as in Armada, but Revised adds quite a big bunch of rules for each of the Gods, even for 'lesser gods / undivided daemons'. Seems quite nice, albeit a bit much for something that has no fleet list of its own.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Capitol ships only is obvious but we should look at limiting these to one or two per fleet. Besides the problems of trying to coordinate with them i cant imagine it would be easy to get even the most hardened crews to sail very long with them. Theyre also supposed to be quite rare.

Some ideas for special rules:

Allow them to be deployed as a contact marker as per the rules for an escalating engagement. Once deployed they may move in any direction upto their max speed each turn and may not be targeted by any attacks or effects. At anytime at the end of a Daemons end phase it may take a leadership test to "phase in" anywhere within 10cm of the contact marker, facing any direction.

The Daemon ship may at the end of any of its subsequent end phases choose to phase out, this works exactly like a standard disengagement, but no leadership test is required. 

Holofields. Errm, i mean spectral displacement effect... which would be holofields.

Any ship within 15cm suffers -1 leadership, not counting any additional modifiers due to marks etc.

If a Daemon ship becomes crippled it must phase out at the end of its next end phase.

Any other ideas?

[afterimagedan]

It seems like very few people want to touch these things, hehe...

Andrew, I really like your concepts there. I will look through things and get back with some thoughts.

[horizon]

The marker idea is neat, needs some further thinking.

The main problem in the original rules is the materialize rule. It takes three turns to actually do something with the vessel. It can be easily denied by having an enemy ship touch the base.

[afterimagedan]

Here's a simple fix for Daemon ships. Do the normal scatter die and 4D6 thing on a Chaos end phase the chaos player determines that is not the first (this is unchanged). The player can choose the heading of the ship after its position is determined (this is a change). It is then considered spectral and cannot do anything and causes -1ld to enemy ships within 15cm (unchanged). The chaos player can take the ship out of this "spectral" status at the beginning of a subsequent chaos turn and take control of the vessel normally (changed), even if in base contact with an enemy vessel (changed). Keep the "Haunting" stuff the same.

I think that should do it. Some really basic changes. Keep the points the same; they are overpriced already so these changes should make it more worth it.

[Neferhet]

Glad to see that you take this subject to discussion afterimagedan.
Demon ships as they are, are worthless, even in the eyes of a noob as I am.
I think that the actual way of "phasing in\out" should be dropped, because it makes such ships useless for 3 or more turns.
I've been thinking about those ships, anyway, and I propose this (kinda overpowered, maybe)
-1 demon ship per full 1000 pts (1 at 1000, 2 at 2000 and so on)
-no csm or lord upgrade can be taken on such ships
-marks can be taken, as usual. possibly different effects?
-"Warp Incursion": the ship is not deployed normally. Instead, at the beginning of your first ordnance phase choose a point of the battlefield up to 20 cm away from a capital ship (called Portal, maybe secretly noted on the list before battle?) of your fleet. Place the demon ship there and then scatter 3d6 cm. If the portal and the Demonship share a mark of chaos, then no scatter occurs.
When the ship moves it "phase out" the real space. Move the ship 2d6 cm for each full 10 cm of nominal movement, ignoring any tabletop feature such as planets, asteroids, minefield etc. You may turn it up to 45°
If the ship should end its movement with it base touching a tabletop feature then subtract an hull point and move the ship until the base is out of contact, following the shortest route. 
-"Ethereal hull": any damage the ship takes is ignored at 5+. No critical damage can be inficted to the ship. It cannot be boarded. Hit and run attacks against this ship inflict an hull point on a roll of 5+ (no save allowed)
The ship cannot take special orders "You dare to order us, mortal??"
-Ethereal weapons: the ship halves its firepower, rounded up. Any damage the ship inflicts cause a critical on 5+.  The ship can only launch normal torpedo and fighters. (actually warp bolts and flying daemons) (maybe those should be halved too)
-Demonic assault: the ship can attempt Teleport hit and run attacks up to 20cm away, and add +1 to its roll. The ship has +1 on any boarding action.
- This upgrade cost 40 pts
Possible alternative marks effects
: Khorne doubles boarding value + 10
: Slaanesh -2 Ld to enemy ships within 15 cm / enemy ordnance and attack craft within 30 cm able to do so must move toward this ship (turning as appropriate to engage it) (sorry for my english...is it comprehensible what I mean??)  +10 / + 20
: Tzeentch the ship ignores damages on a roll of 4+ +25 pts
: Nurgle +1 hull point + 15 pts

A little bit too convoluted maybe?

[Bessemer]

@Dan- That is the simplest fix for materialization.

@Neferhet- Just a little Deamonship ordnance should be boarding torpedoes and Assault boats/fighters (like TH, no reslience) I reckon. like you say it's actually swarms of deamons not warheads or craft

I remember skimming Plaxor's Deamonships, and that they had Mark specific upgrades. Would those rules be up for consideration at all? Adding Dan's above fix.

Is anyone has had experience on these rules, please post!

[Brethren]

Hi Neferhet,

these are a bunch of interesting ideas. But I see a couple of heavy flaws as well.

Comments:

"Warp Incursion"

• Deployment:
  - changing the time when a Daemon arrives and is able to act. Thumbs up.
  - originally Daemons could be deployed next to enemy ships. Maybe I'm alone on that, but for me that was the whole point considering a Daemon Ship.
• Movement:
  - the "phase in/out" thing is a nice idea, but the rate of movement is way too unpredictable and way too slow. 2d6 average on a 7, meaning most Daemons (except Slaughter) would have an average movement of 14cm.
  Needless to say that by turn 3 the Daemon would be way behind its own fleet.
  - the loss of Hits when in contact with a terrain feature would imply that I can't safely maneuver through an asteroid field. Thumbs down.

"Ethereal hull"

• - usually a special order is something the ship and its crew do on its own. Change that to "cannot use fleet re-rolls".
• - halving the Daemons armament is just... painful? Nothing, not the deployment, not the movement, not the 5+ crit chance compensate for that loss. I won't pay 40pts for that, ever.

[Neferhet]

Hi Neferhet,

these are a bunch of interesting ideas. But I see a couple of heavy flaws as well.

Comments:

"Warp Incursion"

• Deployment:
  - changing the time when a Daemon arrives and is able to act. Thumbs up.
  - originally Daemons could be deployed next to enemy ships. Maybe I'm alone on that, but for me that was the whole point considering a Daemon Ship.
• Movement:
  - the "phase in/out" thing is a nice idea, but the rate of movement is way too unpredictable and way too slow. 2d6 average on a 7, meaning most Daemons (except Slaughter) would have an average movement of 14cm.
  Needless to say that by turn 3 the Daemon would be way behind its own fleet.
  - the loss of Hits when in contact with a terrain feature would imply that I can't safely maneuver through an asteroid field. Thumbs down.

"Ethereal hull"

• - usually a special order is something the ship and its crew do on its own. Change that to "cannot use fleet re-rolls".
• - halving the Daemons armament is just... painful? Nothing, not the deployment, not the movement, not the 5+ crit chance compensate for that loss. I won't pay 40pts for that, ever.

I totally see your points.
About the positioning, consider that you can "Warp Incursion" a Dship next to "a capital ship". This means "any capital ship on the field". So even an enemy ship.
About movement, the randomness i so chaotic  ! I thought that since you can materialize it next to an enemy ship, movement should not be a problem. Should be preferable to drop the random movement at all or to give 1d6 cm each 5 cm of normal movement?
About the hull point loss, let's drop that. Maybe it could stay if randomness is dropped?
About the shooting i was thinking to those ships more like boarding beasts. But I agree, thinking twice. Shooting power should be the same.
We could give an option to halve the shooting power in order not to pay any point increase??
About marks: yeah it's redundant to give something complex and unique another unneeded point of uniqueness. Marks can just be the same.
About torpedoes: perfect! Boarding torpedoes and assault boats/fighters! that would make more sense.
Orders: I was thinking that too. no rerolls (other than the ones deriving from its own abilities) can be used on orders failed by this ship.
What do you guys think about the other abilities?
immune to critical is kinda excessive. Maybe removing the 5+ save...
about the limitation?

@bessemer: i've never had experience with the plaxor's document. what was his take on the Dships?
@afterimagedan: your fix is neat and fast and could totslly work. but we should also decrease point cost.
I think that Demon ships should get some more love than just a better way to "deep strike". Either more abilities or less cost. Expecially if we think to limit their number.

[afterimagedan]

@Neferhet. I like your ideas but I think it may be better to keep it simple. How much of a point drop are you talking? What do you guys think is an appropriate limit to them? 1/1000pts?

[Neferhet]

well, with your fix and the limit 1/1000 I could say +20 / 25 as a price for a daemonship. If you want to keep the price difference between cruisers, heavy cruisers and battleship i'd say +20 cruiser & HC / +35 battleship

[Brethren]

The player can choose the heading of the ship after its position is determined (this is a change).
Actually, it's not. FAQ2010 handles it exactly like that.

The chaos player can take the ship out of this "spectral" status at the beginning of a subsequent chaos turn and take control of the vessel normally (changed), even if in base contact with an enemy vessel (changed). Keep the "Haunting" stuff the same.
I don't know. I feel a bit uneasy to allow a Daemon to act on the round it goes solid. What do you think about switching the 'Warp Translation' to the Movement Phase instead? That would allow a Daemon to get summoned (movement) and solid (end phase) in one round. But it would give its enemys a chance to react, before the Daemon kicks their butts.

Strangely, though, FAQ2010 wouldn't allow a spectral Daemon to move...

/edit: Another thing I've thought about is ot allow the Daemon to switch back to spectral again, without dropping back to the Warp first.

[afterimagedan]

It seems to me like allowing the enemy first crack at the daemon ship is the entire problem. That makes it not worth it for me. I am going to try to daemon bomb the enemy, but they may just cripple/destroy it before it does anything. That is too much of a risk, especially for something that also may scatter. If the chaos vessel takes control first, the enemy can at least try to get a favorable position before the next turn, or just fly away from it.