Hello one and all. It's been... well, it's been a long time. Nearly ten-thousand years.
My thoughts, herein, are in an effort to replicate something useful for the Great Crusade Era, using ships of the day and making the necessary modifications to get somewhere with them. This is my broad thinking, a starting point if you will, to try to crystalise my thoughts around and, hopefully, to elicit opinions from other people too. The BFG community seems as good a place to start as any!
I apologise that it's slapdash as a starting point, but I hope it'll be useful.
EXPEDITION FLEET 13: FLEET LISTImperial CharactersLord Commander, +2 Ld, +2 re-rolls
Rogue Trader, +1 Ld, +1 re-roll
Legion CharactersPrimarch, Ld 10, +3 re-rolls Min. Battle Barge.
Commander, +1 Ld, +1 re-roll, Minimum: must be on a Marine Strike Ship.
Shipmaster, +1 Ld
Mechanicum CharactersArchmagos, +1 Ld, +2 Refits
FLAGSHIP 0-1Ramilies Class Star Fort
Gloriana Class Battleship
Abyss Class Superbattleship
Goliath Class Battleship
Infernus Class Battleship
Retribution Class Battleship
EF:13/X-? Class Planetary Assault Battleship (Battlebarge)
SENIOR ASSETS 0-20(Max 1 per 2 Junior Assets)Emperor Class Battleship
Retribution Class Battleship
Apocalypse Class Battleship
Oberon Class Battleship
Desolator Class Battleship
Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser
Avenger Class Grand Cruiser
EF:13/X-? Class Planetary Assault Battleship (Battlebarge)
JUNIOR ASSETSEF:13/Y-? Class Planetary Assault Cruiser
Lunar Class Cruiser (inc. Slaughter class)
Centaur Class Cruiser (Carnage class)
Cthonian Class Picket Cruiser
Silurian Class Light Cruiser (see Battlefleet Bakka)
Heavy Formations (2-4 capital ships)FW Troop Transport
FW Tanker Transport
Forge Tender (Mechanicum 'big transport', e.g. Titan legion transport ship)
Secutor Class (semi-dedicated Mechanicum military explorator ship?)
Light Formations (2-6 escort ships)Claymore Class Corvette
Defence Monitor FW (Thunder Class Corvette?)
Havoc Class Frigate (uses Infidel hull)
Nova/Gladius Class Frigate
Sword Class Frigate
Orion Class Star Clipper
Praetor/Hunter Class Destroyer
Iconoclast Class Destroyer (Rename to something more interesting: Tzu Class Destroyer?)
Q-Ship (Darvin Class?)
Escort Carrier (Apicure Class?)
Armed Transport (Minkowski Class?)
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That's the 'main list'. Individual ships might have the capacity to, say, upgrade to have a 'Prow Armour', to vary their weapon load-out and such. Also there'd be a generic, fleet-wide option along the line of 'Upgrade to Legion Strike Ship' or 'Upgrade to Legion Battle Barge' with some stipulations/limitations - e.g. the Gloriana Class might have to, at minimum, be a Legion Strike Ship. There'd be room for 'Terminator Squad' and 'Terminator Formation' upgrades too (e.g. massively boosting a ship's capacity for H&R and boarding).
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The main and obvious problem in amongst all of this is capturing which of the old ships still use their old names (e.g. Retribution Class) and which would almost certainly be using 'new-old names': would the "Desolator" really associated with light of the Imperial Truth? :lol:
Points cost are obviously lowered, individual ship stats are close enough to the classic versions, with the main change (IMO) being the armour/shields switch around.
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EXPEDITION TO WARScaleable Grand Tournament ScenarioFORCES: Selected as normal for the fleet lists. Players use equal-point values.
Discussion: Allowance for non-Fleet list 'Defences' - 1/3 of points value?BATTLEZONE: Generate Celestial Phenomena in optimal/balance way to promote movement and deter mono-tactic thinking. (Found (Terrain mainly in one half)/Ambush (Terrain mainly in another)/Pitched (Balanced)?)
Discussion: Basically a way to generate varied terrain - the BFG attention to individual systems, whilst admirable, is somewhat unbalancing - we want to promote game-play without overly penalising/favouring certain, formulaic setups!)SET-UP: Random selection to moderate certain advantages (e.g. hiding in or out of cover). Each player must assign one garrisoned terrain piece in their half of the table, noted as Garrisons*. These must be at least 45cm apart.
Discussion: See note on Garrisons. The actual setup can be determined in consultation with BFG players generally. Too close wastes long-range benefit, too unduly favours super-huge guns!FIRST TURN: Weight it so the loser in one therefore gains in the other.
Discussion: Age old problem!GAME LENGTH:
.
BFG games can tick over turns pretty quickly without much change compared to Epic & 40k, fine-tuning a strict limit might ruin games, leaving it open-ended might just waste player's time.VICTORY CONDITIONS:Victory Points:
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Escort Squadron destroyed: 1VP per ship in squadron.
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Capital Ship destroyed: 5VP per ship.
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Legacy: 1VP per character upgrade destroyed. 2VP per Fleet Commander lost.
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Assault!: Each of a ship or squadrons' own End Phase spent within 10cm of an uncontested enemy Garrison adds +1 Victory Point to the Garrison.
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Crippled: 3VP per Capital Ship crippled.
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Disengaged: 1VP per Capital Ship or escort squadron which disengages.
*
Garrisons will often be actual highly-prized assets, e.g. inhabited planets, research stations, resource deposits. In more exotic circumstances, these can be more obscure assets, such as a scour-ship which had been on silent running and is still to fully power up after being made plain to the enemy in light of the signal given to its own fleet. Or perhaps a more peculiar phenomena, such as a stable warp-portal. A Garrison is contested if an enemy ship, squadron or defence (which is itself not a Garrison) is within 10cm.
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This allows the 'benefit of Marines' to be reinforce in games: planetary assault and seizing an objective is key, but in BFG objectives can't just be left lying around. Individual ship types and named characters will come with their own rules wil alter this. E.g.: civilian ships are dirt cheap and not that great as warships, but come with the penalty of VPs awarded to the enemy if they're destroyed, and gained for the owning player if they survive. Picking a fleet with lots of transports changes the dynamic of the game, opening the option of a new game-style for your opponent (e.g. chasing the transports!), without tying you to a specific scenario in advance.
Primarchs, for instance: they'd contribute lots of VPs if they're destroyed, not just 'idle characters', but racking up a pile of Marine Shipmasters & named characters could thematically cripple an enemy force 'beyond the game', even if the wider fleet is itself well survived!
The 'Planetary Assault Ships' mentioned in the fleet lists (classical "Strike Cruisers" and "Battle Barges", but not
necessarily with Space Marines!) will have enhanced abilities to contribute to
ASSAULT! victory points. Adding Marines might make that more achievable and more rewarding yet. In terms of the games, this might be an Ork Asteroid Base, or a nebula dotted with small stations and resource depots: the Imperial Army might still be capable of spear-heading such forces, even in space. But Space Marines do it better....
It's a dynamic that's really cool in games of
Epic: Armageddon, but that allows for a pretty fluid meshing of different forces - the narrative of the engagement should become pretty obvious once fleets are chosen and garrisons set: "Aha, so my fleet is trying to seize a planet! But the other fleet's well defended and I don't have many ships... so my tactic might be best to aim decapitating the enemy and crippling defences in preparation for a proper invasion!".
Who knows, lots of interesting stuff should be opened up here.
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IT'S A CLASS, JIM, BUT NOT AS WE KNOW ITWhat classes are available or plausibly available in the GC-era?Derived from the 'Ships of the Great Crusade' thread, this is a more methodical guide as to what's available. I may've missed some things along the way, but it gives us an idea of what's what.
DefinitesRamilies: Definite. In its own blurb, it's there.
Emperor Class Battleship
Retribution Class Battleship
Apocalypse Class Battleship
Oberon Class Battleship
Desolator Class Battleship: Certainly in use.
Lunar: Probable, it's certainly noted in BftA.
Vengeance Class: Dated to the Great Betrayal, certainly viable. (Consider use of 'Repulsive Class' hull for conversions?)
Either/or: Intdeterminate or Dubious inclusionThe top of the list are plausible, the further to bottom aren't explicitly excluded, but it's a stretch.Siluria Light Cruiser/Havoc class Frigate (Bakka): Older than Sword/Cobra. Use for Mechanicus CL and 'tidied up' Infidel class hulls?
Swords: Role as Orion-class Star Clippers? Orions certainly look to be certainly present.
Firestorms: Recent for Battlefleet Obscurus, possibility of existence earlier? Seem evident in HH:CC, though visuals aren't worth much.
Hades, Devastation, Carnage, Iconoclast, Exorcist, Gladius, Nova & Retaliator: Can't say. No useful information.
Executor: Can't say. Very few ever built, seem to arise from Hydraphur. Possible that the Furious Abyss or later war removed the capacity for their construction? It's equally possible they weren't constructed 'til well after...
Endeavour, Endurance, Defiant Light Cruisers: Can't say. Defiants are 'relatively recent developments'.
Slaughter: Limited construction re-Scartix and the coils suggests post-Heresy. Functionally could be seen elsewhere, but wouldn't be by this name.
Styxx: Over-reading the text, no. It's only explicitly discussing Battlefleet Obscurus, other Battlefleets might have different availabilities allowing HH era!
Idolators: Rumoured to be from Excommunicate Forge World near the Eye of Terror. Presumably this'd mean
not a HH design, but could be anything.
Infidel: Indicated to be late 40th Millennium genesis. The similar looking Havoc Class of the "Rogue Traders in BFG" article(s) suggest it pre-dates the more recent Sword and Cobra classes.
Armageddon Class: Always as an upgrade to Lunar Class hulls. Possible upgrade occured in HH-era?
Murder: Can't say. Over-reading implies construction refined to 33rd through 37th Millennia.
Not as we know itMars/Overlord/Tyrant
- 'types' quite impossible, the contemporary designations for this pattern were not in use.
Dominator: Nopes.
Despoiler Class: nope! The 'Traitor Legion Battle Barge' uses this base - could it be the basis for the Gloriana/Infernus?
Repulsive: Not in use.
Acheron: Seems quite thoroughly unlikely, given the text.
Falchion: Noted to be created 261.M41.
Hunter: Said to be based on a design which widely available to chapters. Conjecture: pre-Hunter not-Hunter like-Hunter class and use of ship-models is viable.
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Thoughts or input on this very welcome.
Folks'll notice I've gone ahead and included the Siluria & Havoc class. I'm inclined to think that they, along with the Hades, Devastation, Carnage, Iconoclast, Exorcist, Executor, Gladius, Nova & Retaliator classes, as ships, could and should be included
but with different, HH-era names.
I mean, excepting the Nova & Gladius, they're not very 'Imperial Truth', are they? (Similarly, renaming the Havoc might be worthwhile.)
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Edit: This is mainly hypothetical and incomplete, but you probably get the idea. I've still to write in the bits in Battlebarge and Strike Ship which convert to SM ordnance (e.g. halving launch bay strength, allowing for Space Marine rules akin to the classic BFG Thunderhawk and Thunderhawk annihilators. Giving them a full selection of up-ruled Fighters/Bombers/Assault Boats seems most sensible, I guess.)
IMPERIAL ARMY OPTIONSLord Commander: +75pts
+2 Ld and 2 re-rolls. Their ship must be a capital ship. If their ship is destroyed, opponent gains a further +3VPs atop normal gains.
Naval Veteran: +30pts
+1 Ld, their ship or squadron may re-roll one failed Command Check per game.
Rogue Trader: +50pts
+1Ld and 1 re-roll. For each Rogue Trader up to three cruisers or escorts may purchase xeno-tech options?
Troop Ship: -
At no cost any capital ship may be an Imperial Army troop ship. It thus contributes +2VP gained if ship survives, +2VP gained by the enemy if ship is destroyed.
Xeno-tech:
See “Fabric of the Imperium†rules?
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SPACE MARINE LEGION OPTIONSSpace Marines: A ship with any of the following options counts as having Space Marines aboard. Any Hit & Run attacks made by such a ship (or its ordnance) gain a +1 bonus to the D6 roll.
Primarch: +200pts.
Ld 10 and 3 re-rolls. Triple the ship's boarding value. Ship (and its ordnance) may select result rather than rolling for any Hit and Run attacks it makes. Their ship must also be a Battlebarge. If their ship is destroyed, opponent gains a further +5VPs atop normal gains.
Commander: +75pts
+2Ld and 1 re-roll. Their ship must be either a Strike Ship or a Battle Barge. Double the ship's boarding value. If their ship is destroyed, opponent gains a further +2VPs atop normal gains.
Shipmaster: +20pts
+1 Ld. +2 to the ship's boarding value.
Battle Barge: +25pts.
Restricted to: ships of Grand Cruiser displacement or greater (e.g. 10+ hit points) which have at least a Shipmaster character aboard.
Boarding: Ships add a +2 to their D6 roll in boarding actions. Enemy H&R attacks against this ship suffer a -1 to their roll.
Assault: Can contest and compete to gain Assault victory points at 15cm rather than 10cm.
Strike ship: +15pts
Restricted to: ships of Cruiser displacement (e.g. 4-8 hit points).
Boarding: Ships add a +2 to their D6 roll in boarding actions. Enemy H&R attacks against this ship suffer a -1 to their roll.
Assault: Can contest and compete to gain Assault victory points at 15cm rather than 10cm.
Terminator Squad: +5pts
One used only. A Terminator squad may be used when a ship makes a Teleport Hit and Run attack. Terminators roll two dice and select the most desired (noting the Space Marine +1 to the roll). A Terminator Squad's attack is in addition to to the ship's normal Teleport attack.
Terminator Formation: +15pts
Battle Barge and Strike Ships only. Like a Terminator Squad, but they may be used more than once and incur a further -1 to any H&R attacks against the ship.
MARTIAN MECHANICUM OPTIONSRobotic Maniple: +5pts
One use only. A Robotic Maniple maybe be deployed via teleporters, effectively allowing the ship to make a second Teleport attack that turn.
Mechanicum Sovereignship: Any ship with the following options constitutes a Mechanicum Sovereignty and may select only Rogue Trader, Troop Ship and Ship Master options from the Imperial Army and Space Marine sections. All Mechanicum Sovereignships have at least one Omnissian Refit and is especially vulnerable to enemy Hit and Run attacks (see 'Gifts of the Omnissiah', “Knowledge is Power†rules).
Archmagos: +50pts
+1Ld. An Archmagos' ship has an additional Omnissian Refits atop its first as a Sovereignship. The player may forego the second Refit in favour of simply choosing the result for the first.
Robotic Cohort: +15pts
As per a Robotic Maniple, the ship may make an additional teleport attack per turn.
Exploration Archive: +5pts
The ship hosts vast resources and equipment including dedicated data-looms and enhanced sensor suites. The ship loses one weapon system. Fleet-wide, the bonus to Leadership tests for enemy contacts (enemy ships on special orders) is doubled from +1 to +2.
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DiscussionI've got some edits I need to get making on this, to show some of the more concrete ideas that've been fronted or information that's come to light (Victory class and Nova class, in particular), as well as brainstorming to do on creating hypothetical profiles for as yet unrepresented classes.
Myself, and I'm probably close to alone in this, my hope is to rework the ships to be broadly 4+ armour, with 5+ prows and, in the 'Space Marine Strike Cruiser' profile, 5+ all around. The Imperium's young, it hasn't plated everything it owns in dozens of metres thick adamantium. Yet....
