BFG:R Space Marine TH Annihilator

[afterimagedan]

So making them just a bomber would make them a Tau Manta, basically. It doesn't sit right for me that a THA does not have a fighter capability. Also, there is no fighter option to give them turret suppression besides the regular thunderhawk. That's weird also. You have to TH attack bigger ships to do reasonable damage with THAs. Tau Mantas at least have fighters to escort them around. THAs will not. I still think Fighter Bomber with D3+1 then turret suppression is a better idea.

[horizon]

D3+1 for me is the best solution. As it needs to retain its fighter capability.

[afterimagedan]

D3+1 for me is the best solution. As it needs to retain its fighter capability.

and the +1 is turret suppression or before turret suppression?

[horizon]

Eh, no, sorry.

To avoid confusion once and for all:

Thunderhawk annihilator function exactly the same as Ork fighter bombers. And have the bonus of being resilient.

[afterimagedan]

So...

Thunderhawk -> Fighter + Resilient + full Assault Boat with a +1.
Annihilator      -> Fighter + Resilient + half Bomber with built in turret suppression.

?? That's not even.

What looks like the best option to me is just the same as Ork FBs, resilient save, D6 against battleships.  The idea is, Bombers should do more hits against everything except escorts. ABs kill escorts at 66.6% and should remain better at doing that than THAs. Bombers should do more hits against cruisers and battleships where ABs do more critical damage, hindering them. Check the math below...

-4 THs hit a Desolator. 2 THs die. 2 H&Rs against the Desolator, 30.5% change to get 1 hit, 2 H&Rs with no option to roll a 1 and could possibly do more damage with a Fire critical.
-4 original THAs hit a Desolator. 2 THAs die, still 2 hits, possibly chance to get more, 55% change to get 1 hit, 16.6% to get a full critical.

-4 THAs with the FB rule hit a Carnage. 1 THA dies. 6 attacks against it, average 2 hits against it. 30.55% chance at critical.
-4 THs hit a Carnage. 1 TH dies. 3 H&Rs, about 42% chance to get a hit on it, excluding the chance at a fire crit.

-2 THAs with the FB rule hit a Sword. 1 dies, one gets 1 attack against it, killing it at 33.3%.
-2 THs hit a Sword. 1 dies, 1 kills it at 66.6%.

This is the best way to even them out. THAs are FBs + resilient and are exceptionally good at combating enemy battleships and therefore do D6 hits against them. This makes THAs appealing against battleships for raw damage, great at fighting cruisers, and not so great against escorts. THs would be good at hindering battleships, good at hindering cruisers, and excellent (best in the game) against escorts.

[Seahawk]

Hmm, didn't even realize they were an option already.

D4 bomber! Better than D3 but not as powerful as D6.

[afterimagedan]

D4 bomber! Better than D3 but not as powerful as D6.

[ducks in cover, awaiting the onslaught]

[eyeslikethunder]

D4 bomber! Better than D3 but not as powerful as D6.

[ducks in cover, awaiting the onslaught]

LOL

Couldn't do the stats could you!!

[afterimagedan]

D4 bomber! Better than D3 but not as powerful as D6.

[ducks in cover, awaiting the onslaught]

LOL

Couldn't do the stats could you!!

No it's not that. Whenever anything but a D6 or D3 is mentioned, sparks fly.

[afterimagedan]

This is the best way to even them out. THAs are FBs + resilient and are exceptionally good at combating enemy battleships and therefore do D6 hits against them. This makes THAs appealing against battleships for raw damage, great at fighting cruisers, and not so great against escorts. THs would be good at hindering battleships, good at hindering cruisers, and excellent (best in the game) against escorts.

Any takers?

[eyeslikethunder]

D4 bomber! Better than D3 but not as powerful as D6.

[ducks in cover, awaiting the onslaught]

LOL

Couldn't do the stats could you!!

No it's not that. Whenever anything but a D6 or D3 is mentioned, sparks fly.

Hehe True
but you misunderstood me i was asking if you could do the stats like you did for the other options So we could see how it compared


Thats a nice option I can flex to that to D3 normally D6 against battleships

[AndrewChristlieb]

Nova cannon should do D20 damage... Just sayin

[eyeslikethunder]

I think we should offer marines players a choice they would pick sometimes but not always  thats good list design offering them option they would never use is just bad list design.

If you give a fire warrior a bolter in addition to what he all ready has he never use it because he has str5 30" weapon  already where a guardsman would jump at the choice  and never use his lasgun. Its about internal balance within a list

AfterImagedan  has shown us statistically where the balance lies and provided some good suggestions
Seahawk d4  suggestion is also probably close to the mark too
Let us pick one in this middle ground
Why the intransigence?

[Talos]

@AndrewChristlieb In Cadian Blood (Imperial Guard novel), a Dominator cripples the Terminus Est in one shot. Nova Cannons in fluff are so much better than their BFG/RT equivalents its almost hilarious.

Personally I like Dan's suggestion of d3+1. Simple but elegant, and with suppression bonus it is pretty much better than a d6 against anything with 5 turrets or less. I don't really like upsizing versus battleships; not every fleet needs to excel in every aspect. SM ordnance does not need to be able to destroy battleships to be effective, becuase SM have other tools for destroying them. They have absolutely devastating battery strength in 30cm or less and currently, other than dedicated khornite vessels or nids the best boarding values in the game, alongside absolutely destructive H & R that are second only to DE. If the SM need a battleship destroyed, they don't need to do it with ordnance is my point.

[afterimagedan]

SM ordnance does not need to be able to destroy battleships to be effective, becuase SM have other tools for destroying them. They have absolutely devastating battery strength in 30cm or less and currently, other than dedicated khornite vessels or nids the best boarding values in the game, alongside absolutely destructive H & R that are second only to DE. If the SM need a battleship destroyed, they don't need to do it with ordnance is my point.

It's not that they need more things to do that job, it is just that we want the THA to compare to the TH. The same argument can be made about all sorts of stuff in the game. Technically, we could just delete ordnance from the game and still be able to destroy ships but we want the game to be more fun and have options.

Added D4 option:

-4 THs hit a Desolator. 2 THs die. 2 H&Rs against the Desolator, 30.5% change to get 1 hit, 2 H&Rs with no option to roll a 1 and could possibly do more damage with a Fire critical.
-4 original THAs hit a Desolator. 2 THAs die, still 2 hits, possibly chance to get more, 55% change to get 1 hit, 16.6% to get a full critical.
-4 D4 THAs hits the Desolator. 2 die. 2 hits but no change for more. 55% change to get 1 hit, 16.6% to get a full critical.

-4 THAs with the FB rule hit a Carnage. 1 THA dies. 6 attacks against it, average 2 hits against it. 30.55% chance at critical.
-4 THs hit a Carnage. 1 TH dies. 3 H&Rs, about 42% chance to get a hit on it, excluding the chance at a fire crit.
-4 D4 THAs hit a Carnage. 1 Dies. 4.5 attacks against it, 75% change for a crit.

-2 THAs with the FB rule hit a Sword. 1 dies, one gets 1 attack against it, killing it at 33.3%.
-2 THs hit a Sword. 1 dies, 1 kills it at 66.6%.
-2 THAs at D4 hit a Sword. 1 dies. Average 2.5 attacks. 83% chance to kill it. (here's the problem with D4)

There's the problem with D4 and D3+1: they are better at killing escorts than ABs, and that's no good. D3 and D6 against battleships makes the most sense still.