BFG:R Space Marine TH Annihilator

[afterimagedan]

Nope orks  don't fighter assault boats so don't a another choice they would always pick instead

I am saying that the Thunderhawk Annihilator would be a Fighta-Bomba with a resilient save and move 20cm.

[horizon]

My issue with this is I fear it makes the bomber a choice no on uses

When faced with choosing between fighter bomber with d3 attacks minus turrets +1 
or fighter assault boat with Critical hits which have have two results(due tho the marine bonus) which cause damage (fire and engines) and every hit gets a result rather than the than having to roll to beat armour normally a 5

Why would you pick the bomber?

At the moment  i have think about which is the more appropriate choice

No, way. The D6T-Annihilator + turret suppression build in is wwwwwaaaaayyyyyyy better then the regular T-Hawk.

[Seahawk]

I'm fine without any additions at all. Thunderhawks and that's it. One dimensionality is kinda how the SM do things: Smash and win!

[afterimagedan]

I'm fine without any additions at all. Thunderhawks and that's it. One dimensionality is kinda how the SM do things: Smash and win!

Dropping something that is in the 2010 FAQ is a bad idea, in my opinion. Let's rework it so that it's usable and not overpowered.

[Talos]

@horizon I think eyeslikethunder is stating that the d3 thunderhawk bomber is weaker than a regular thunderhawk. No one in their right mind thinks of the annihilator as under powered.

I do agree that we should not drop faq 2010 material. Apart from the fact that it is good stuff, we would also alienate a large part of the community, which is certainly not what we want.

[afterimagedan]

I do agree that we should not drop faq 2010 material. Apart from the fact that it is good stuff, we would also alienate a large part of the community, which is certainly not what we want.

Yes, this exactly. I think BFG:R should be additional options and small edits, but not drop anything that is currently an option entirely.

Alright, well the vote is currently a tie. Any other thoughts of how to make the THA work and be balanced? I am going to try out some math and consider a D3+1 option as well as the D6 and D3 options.

-4 THAs with the FB rule hitting a Desolator. 2 THAs die. 2 attacks against the Desolator, 55% change to get 1 hit, 16.6% to get a full critical.
-4 THs hit a Desolator. 2 THs die. 2 H&Rs against the Desolator, 30.5% change to get 1 hit, 2 H&Rs with no option to roll a 1 and could possibly do more damage with a Fire critical.
-4 THAs with the D3+1 rule hit a Desolator. 2 THAs die. Still, 55% change to get 1 hit, 16.6% to get a full critical.
-4 original THAs hit a Desolator. 2 THAs die, still 2 hits, possibly chance to get more, 55% change to get 1 hit, 16.6% to get a full critical.

-4 THAs with the FB rule hit a Carnage. 1 THA dies. 6 attacks against it, average 2 hits against it. 30.55% change at critical.
-4 THs hit a Carnage. 1 TH dies. 3 H&Rs, about 42% chance to get a hit on it, excluding the chance at a fire crit.
-4THAs with the D3+1 rule his a Carnage. 1 THA dies. 12 attacks, 4 hits average against it, good chance at critical.
-4 original THAs hit a Carnage. 1 dies. 13.5 attacks against it in average. 4.4995 hits on average. good chance of critical.

-2 THAs with the FB rule hit a Sword. 1 dies, one gets 1 attack against it, killing it at 33.3%.
-2 THs hit a Sword. 1 dies, 1 kills it at 66.6%.
-2 THAs with the D3+1 rule hit a Sword. 1 dies, one gets 1 attacks against it, killing it at 55.5%.
-2 original THAs hit a Sword. 1 dies, 1 gets an average of 2.5 attacks against it, 83.3325% to kill it.

Alright, D6 is too powerful, D3 is too crappy. D3+1 makes the most sense. Just as powerful as the original against battleships (slightly more powerful than an AB against it), a little less powerful against cruisers (but much more than ABs), and now less powerful than assault boats against escorts, how it should be.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I imagine thats why ork fighta bombas are d3+1 attacks.

[eyeslikethunder]

How do THA Compare with With default bombers? Are there any other full d6 fighter bombers?
Right options going forward
Could wE make them a paid upgrade 15-20 pts?  It does seem wrong that one sm  fleet gets them included free but th other doesnt .Thats the default BFG method you can have more/better ordnance options but you have pay

Or 10pts per bay because of the option to sacrifice wb for launch bays
After all with only 2 bays per cruiser by default getting large squads of  THA involves squading cruisers something other fleets don't have to do as they normally have 4-8 bays per ship

[afterimagedan]

I imagine thats why ork fighta bombas are d3+1 attacks.

They are D3 attacks, +1 after turret suppression. This test was D3+1 then +1 after turret suppression.

[afterimagedan]

How do THA Compare with With default bombers? Are there any other full d6 fighter bombers?
Right options going forward
Could wE make them a paid upgrade 15-20 pts?  It does seem wrong that one sm  fleet gets them included free but th other doesnt .Thats the default BFG method you can have more/better ordnance options but you have pay

Or 10pts per bay because of the option to sacrifice wb for launch bays
After all with only 2 bays per cruiser by default getting large squads of  THA involves squading cruisers something other fleets don't have to do as they normally have 4-8 bays per ship

Why do all this when we could just balance them?

[eyeslikethunder]

Making them more expensive would help balance them
Plus balances them across the two fleets

[eyeslikethunder]

Having had a look at the stats you did maybe d3+1 with turret suppression is a good compromise

I made the same mistake as Andrew and was about tell you had done your maths wrong.....

[afterimagedan]

Having had a look at the stats you did maybe d3+1 with turret suppression is a good compromise

I made the same mistake as Andrew and was about tell you had done your maths wrong.....

Well, I could have been more clear about it. 

[AndrewChristlieb]

Standard is d6, orks d3 +1 after turrets, eldar d6 with reroll, space marines (currently) d6 +1 after turrets resilient, tau resilient.

I believe thats all the flavors. I also think its pretty obvious that when the faq was written the THA was intended to be a standard bomber attack (d6, because thats what it says ) and things really only became muddled when the ork rules listed ALL "fighter bombers" as gaining the +1 to attacks.

To be honest they shouldnt have the fighter ability and should be available to all spacemarine ships.

[eyeslikethunder]

I suggested that it should just be d6 earlier in thread
People seemed opposed to making an exception

But I think that afterimage has proved his suggestion statistically
Its a match for the TH so it's not overpowered but can be used as an effective alternative