BFG:R Space Marines

[Sigoroth]

But that are more God Bonusses. That is different then chapter tactics in space.

Yes, but that is talking about lore, and not game mechanics. Chaos get those options for upgrades. SM do not. He is saying that the chapter bonuses would fill that roll.

The differences between the Chaos gods is demonstrable even at a fleet level. The differences between SM chapters are indistinguishable at this level. There is no difference whatsoever between the different CSM legions in space. Why would there be a difference between SM chapters?

[afterimagedan]

But that are more God Bonusses. That is different then chapter tactics in space.

Yes, but that is talking about lore, and not game mechanics. Chaos get those options for upgrades. SM do not. He is saying that the chapter bonuses would fill that roll.

The differences between the Chaos gods is demonstrable even at a fleet level.

How are they distinguishable? Do you have references from fluff?

[ThaneAquilon]

I do. SPOILERS FOR ATLAS INFERNAL

Inquisitor Czevaks Ship was flying through the eye and got attack by a khornite ship, which didn't fire at them, I believe, and had almost it's entire crew board Czevack's vessel. (Unprotected, near-suicidal jumps through hard void/immaterial space). There was a grand total of 1 chaos legionaire on board, adn he didn't even try to board Czevack's ship, and while we can assume he was a world eater, I don't believe it's ever stated which legion he's from, whearas elsewhere in the novel, it's explicitly said where legionaires are from (example: The Thousand Sons Legionaire that they fight).

So that pretty closely mimics one of the Khorn fleet's abilities, whithout marines being involved.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Hum, thats odd if theres no difference in CSM then why are there special rules for them specifically?

[ThaneAquilon]

There are, the same rules as for regular SM. When one of the protagonists from Czevack's ship gets to the bridge, he encounters the CSM on board and has a super intense fight with the guy that I can see justifying the H+R boost and the ld boost is obviously a given. But aside from what weapon he happened to be using, his legion wouldn't have really changed much of that fight. All my example is illustrating is that allegiance to one of the Chaos gods dictates a Chaos fleet much more than a particular chapter/legion would.

[horizon]

Yeah, just like that.

Chaos God > Chapter/Legion

[Talos]

I am starting to agree with horizon on this one. Chapter differentiation should be done at a fleet level, as all marines invest in similar tactics. I mean really, despite all their differences SM all have the same capabilities. Blood Angels are reknowned for melee combat, but in the Night Lords trilogy they comment repeatedly on how during the siege of terra the blood angels are excellent marksman. The dark angels are known for ranged combat, but that doesn't stop them from wading in with power swords in the SM battle books. All SM are capable of all things, Matt Wardism's aside.

[ThaneAquilon]

A standard tactical marine is, after all an all-rounder (Gray Hunter's aside).

[afterimagedan]

Blood Angels are reknowned for melee combat, but in the Night Lords trilogy they comment repeatedly on how during the siege of terra the blood angels are excellent marksman. The dark angels are known for ranged combat, but that doesn't stop them from wading in with power swords in the SM battle books. All SM are capable of all things, Matt Wardism's aside.

Yes, but Blood Angels are better at close combat than Dark Angels and are supposed to be that way. Yes they are "excellent marksman," but all space marines are great at all types of combat. Yet, some chapters are better at some things than others. Plus, adding chapter specifics will make the SM fleet more varied, something that they desperately need. Chaos has a huge, expansive fleet with tons of options. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to have expanded options for the SM fleet. I know there is a lot of SM love in the 40k realm, but there certainly is a lot of anti-SM fleet stuff going around in the BFG realm. Chaos? OMG I LOVE CHAOS THEY ARE TEH BESTZORZ I LOVE THEIR 8 DIFFERENT FLEETS THEIR COUNTLESS SHIPS AND TONS OF OPTIONS.

 SM? [shrug]  There are countless differences in the 40k SM realm. These same SMs pilot the ships of the SM fleet in BFG. And yet, people still argue that there are no differences between the fleets besides the differences in ships they own. The individual SMs are involved in every aspect of the SM fleet and yet, people want there to be no differences.

People are ok with boarding differences between Khorne Berzerkers and regular CSMs, yet they won't allow for a difference between Ultramarine boarding parties and Space Wolf boarding parties. 

Chapter differences are totally reasonably for fluff and game-mechanic reasons.

[afterimagedan]

A standard tactical marine is, after all an all-rounder (Gray Hunter's aside).

This same argument works for CSMs too. Yet, there are some CSMs with marks of chaos, just as their are specialty types within regular SM chapters.

[ThaneAquilon]

And I agree that Legions and Chapters should get and appendix that lays out rules we can use for them, however on a marked ship, every crew member, like 20 or 30 thousand people are so marked, whearas on a SM vessel there are like 10 marines. Keep in mind that CSM and SM provide the same bonus in BFG, non-CSM vessels can get the mark upgrade. It's the mark of Khorn that gives the boarding bonus, presumeable to the armsmen, not the CSM themselves that are giving that bonus.

[afterimagedan]

And I agree that Legions and Chapters should get and appendix that lays out rules we can use for them, however on a marked ship, every crew member, like 20 or 30 thousand people are so marked, whearas on a SM vessel there are like 10 marines. Keep in mind that CSM and SM provide the same bonus in BFG, non-CSM vessels can get the mark upgrade. It's the mark of Khorn that gives the boarding bonus, presumeable to the armsmen, not the CSM themselves that are giving that bonus.

So, when 3 THs are launched from a Battlebarge, there are 3 marines in them, each? There are 0 marines left on the vessel? That's just not true.

"There are also a few hundred
Chapter serfs to attend to other duties, such as
routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the
Space Marines during meal times and other
such honoured tasks. These serfs come from the
Chapter’s home planet or the enclave they
protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants
who have failed some part of the recruiting or
training process. These serfs are fanatically loyal
to their superhuman masters, and indoctrinated
into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter’s
Cult. Although human, they still benefit from
remarkable training and access to superior
weaponry than is usually found on a naval
vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a
boarding action – even without the support of
their genetically modified lords."

So, the crew with the SMs is elite and not some crappy guardsmen.

If you guys are ok with an upgrade to put "10" (which I don't think is true) CSM on a ship, which gives it +2 to its boarding value, then that just supports my claim that the specialties of the different chapters should be more apparent. Also, you should be totally fine with loyalist SM chapters getting stuff like this:

Dark Angels Deathwing:
-bonus to H&R

Blood Angels Death Company:
-Bonus to boarding

Space Wolves Thunderwolves:
-Bonus to boarding

Black Templar Sword Brethren:
-bonus

Raven Guard Raptors:
-bonus

White Scars Biker Hordes:
-bonus

Imperial Fists Fortifications:
-bonus

Iron Hands Techmarines:
-bonus

Ultramarines Honour Guard:
-bonus

Salamanders Melta Supremacy:
-bonus
(Because of their early training as blacksmiths, all Salamanders are fully capable of maintaining and performing moderate repair on their weapons and armour, leaving the Chapter's artificers with the free time necessary to create great works of technology and metallurgy)

[ThaneAquilon]

I believe it's in Rogue Trader (which admittedly is a FFG product) that it mentions the relatively small number of marines on a marine vessel, but unfortunately I couldn't tell you where, so I realise that hold no water. Perhaps Talos may remeber the quote. In any case I'm not arguing against having chapter specific benefits, I'm simply saying they should be in a seperate appendix. I think that having a vessel dedicated to a chaos god will have more impact that a particular SM chapter's prefferences in war. No matter the marine, the training for serf wil be relatively similar. Plus that Khornate ship was literally empty when it got counter-boarded. No chance that a SM vessels would ever, ever do that, no matter how much they love CC.

[afterimagedan]

I have the Rogue Trader book and the Deathwatch book. Let me know if you find the reference.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here, though we both want the same result of the whole thing. The appendix for chapters, loyal and traitor, is the best option because then, you can choose to use it or not.

[Talos]

@afterimagedan You have to admit, any opponent who the marines manage to board with THUNDERWOLVES or a BIKE HORDE is probably like, "Well F**k me, good game guys, I will be heading for the escape pod now..." I wish I could draw that would make awesome art.

The Savage Scars novel by Andy Hoare places an escort sized SM vessel at 5-10 marines, with strike cruisers at 30-100 marines and battlebarges at 100-300 marines. One would have to imagine that in most engagements, the entire chapter is not involved and thus most of those numbers are on the smaller side.

Chapter benefits should be a thing, minor and as a point addition. But he community clearly does not want this, so lets wait for the appendix and rock 'em, right Dan.